invisible, the article you are talking about is most likely "corpo Qutro, about sylvio behring's academy in Brazil..A quote
"When they were both younger, Sylvio told Rickson, “You should learn judo, man”. Rickson said, "You don't understand man, I am Rickson Gracie. I can't go to a judo academy and get thrown by white belts". But a couple years later, Rickson did go. Rickson’s top student, Sylvio’s brother Marcello, went too. A lot of guys followed, in due course."
He may however say he didnt now because it diminishes the "pure water" shit they been preaching for so many years but ALOT of the best "bjj men" trained Judo with Mehdi...
Sperry, Busta, Wallid, The Behrings, Rolles, etc, etc
Also, as a side note..Rickson also always says he did not know the rules to sambo and that he went into the tourney blind well lets look at the evidence..
People's exhibit A..
This is a picture of Rickson training Sambo with his Brother the late Rolles Gracie..
Now Rolles died in 1982 from a hang gliding accident, HOWEVER, Ricksons loss in Sambo was in 1993...
?m.g., my source is 5th degree bjj blackbelt and Mehdi blackbelt Sylvio Behring..?
Well my source is Rickson Gracie himself. I am pretty sure he knows what he has done and has not done in his life. I kind of take Rickson?s own word over whatever Sylvio Behring or anyone else says these days. I know Sylvio used to be very respected and all but when BJJ begun to spread and opportunities to make good money with it came it seems that MR. Behring has taken a turn to worse. For example there was some scandal about him selling belt ranks in Europe. He totally lied about that and got burned bad. Btw. Does Sylvio held grudge towards the Gracies over his brothers death?
As far as your revisionist history on why Mehdi deos not like Gracies? From what I have been told in Brazil Mehdi developed serious grudge against the Gracies for 2 separate reasons: 1) Most of his best students such as Ze Mario Sperry left Mehdi?s dojo in order to train with the Gracies. Mehdi did not take it well at all? Seriously he REALLY did not take it well at all.2) There was some issue regarding some money. Forgot the details as it has been a while I was told about.
In any case Mehdi himself is not exactly a saint or anything.
Some of the old school BJJ men did train with Mehdi a bit. Infact some of the more famous (Carlson Gracie lineage) started with Mehdi but then left him in order to train with the Gracies as they thought Gracies are better to train with and better than Mehdi. It was always mostly side of Carlson Gracie that trained with Mehdi etc. Helio?s side of the family always did very little outside training with Royler being somewhat exception to the rule.
Rolls Gracie is whole another deal. He trained lot of wrestling, Judo and you name it. If there was a martial art available he would go and study it and train it. Rolls was particularly interested in wrestling and trained it most besides his BJJ. Alliance (Rolls lineage) guys continued Rolls ways and have always been known as the team with best stand up. Alliance guys have always done wrestling and Judo for stand up (but not with Mehdi).
As far as Rickson goes he never really trained with Mehdi or any other representative of other grappling arts. He did go out and test this and that and see instructor here and there is all about but it was all just him showing up to check one or two classes and that?s it. He never really actually TRAINED with anyone else than his family.
?Also, as a side note..Rickson also always says he did not know the rules to sambo and that he went into the tourney blind well lets look at the evidence..?
It could very well be true that he had no clue about the actual rules. Back then his English was not exactly stellar and who know what kind of rules they have used in Brazil. This being said it could also be true that he is flat out lying. Now I am sure both you are me and not in position to judge this.
In any case what exactly is the big deal? Rickson was teaching out of his garage back then and just wanted some action. Now Rickson entered some throwing competition or whatever and got thrown? He is not exactly supposed to be best at throwing. In any case did not Rigan Machado tap that guy who threw Rickson in the next match pretty easily? Royler, Rolls and Machados have history of competing outside BJJ. They have all done well with Rolls being the one who did very well.
Regarding Rolls he was the one who was the ?mad scientist?. Rolls competed in wrestling (high level), Sambo, Judo and you name it. Is it not surprising at all that there are pictures of Rolls preparing for Sambo, Judo, Wrestling or whatever competition with his brothers.
I am pretty sure that Rolls could have never competed at a high level in wrestling simply because Brasil has ZERO wrestling.
Other than that, who knows what they did. Most of these Gracies have so much BS associated with them that nobody really knows anything anymore. The only one that seems decent is Renzo.
I am pretty sure that Rolls could have never competed at a high level in wrestling simply because Brasil has ZERO wrestling.
My jiu jitsu coach, who is a black belt from carlson gracie sr. Has talked about greco roman competitions back in brasil. Roberto Leiteo was the trainer i believe.
I think what he meant is that Brazil sucks at wrestling...I went to a junior college and a third stringer we had there was on the brazilian world team.
A plausible explanation why elite judo players do not do BJJ is that it is more important to their success to fight international players(Russians,Georgians,Japanese,Koreans,French, Cubans, Germans, etc with different attack/grip styles. (Former) North Korean World/Olympic champion Jeon did this without pins/chokes/armbars. mastered gripping/throwing teckniques.
Taken from October 1998 Kung Fu presents World of Martial Arts Magazine. Interview with Rickson Gracie.
"Richardson: What do you do to train your takedowns?
Rickson: I have a general picture of training. I do positive cross training. I always want to use what works so that I evolve in a positive way. For my throws and takedowns I train wrestling and judo. Without the gi, wrestlers are the most talented at takedowns. With the gi, judo players are the best."
Umm come bit of a stange person Train Judo. Nothing personal. Then again maybe you have some kind of agenda against BJJ or something. I am just not quite sure what you are after on this thread (?).
In any case Rickson Gracie never TRAINED with Mehdi which is excatly what I have been told, what Rickson himself has said and what I said.
For sure Rickson has cross trained wrestling and Judo for his stand up. Was there never eve nany question about it? (He just is not that goog in stand up portion of grappling.) That's what every single BJJer/GJJer who has any sense whatsoever does. For example I am from Alliance Jiu-Jitsu myself and Alliance is known as team with best stand up in Brazil. This is propably due to Alliance coming directly from Rolls Gracie's lineage and for this reason cross training in Judo na Wrestling for stand up has always been big part of Alliance BJJ.
Rickson's own brother Royler is the one that has trained Judo and Wrestling the most. He even used to compete in Judo back in Brazil and did well. To my knowledge he only stopped after being told by some Judo coach that in order to compete at next level he would have to concentrate training stand up only. Rickson has propably trained Judo throws with Rolls and Royler etc. "a lot" and most likely trained with some Judo people too. He has also propably trained wrestling takedowns and throws with Rolls and Royler "a lot". All I know is that he never trained Judo under a coach like Royler did (Royler wanted to do Judo competitions so he trained Judo).
Remember Jiu-Jitsu is the base everything is build upon. For us BJJers all other martial arts and sports are collection of toolboxes. We just pick whatever tools we feel we need. Tools that work with our base and strategy. We pick it up if it is good make/tweak it work with our base, our strategy our Jiu-Jitsu.
In the end the whole core positional hierarchy of BJJ is based on Vale Tudo aspect of BJJ (Vale Tudo aspect of BJJ is the core of BJJ).
Moderators this thread has really taken a turn at worse so please lock this thread. For some reason I get the feeling this is heading towards the road some BJJ vs. Judo war fast and that is just stupid.
Seem like posting a simple video of one of the Gracies competing and winning in Sambo competition using good solid ground really got some people worked up for whatever reason.
what you write below, has nothing to do with jiu-jitsu specifically. ask any decent judo competitor and he will tell you that they pick whatever works. I don't see how this has anything to do with BJJ. In fact, overall, there have been many more techniques incorporated into modern judo than into BJJ.
In terms of position, I agree, however I have found that same to be true of judo. In fact, most judoka seem to try to find a position better than most BJJ'ers who like to try various subs. The guard position and being on the bottom has turned out into one of the worst positions for modern day MMA. Just look at what Fedor did to Nog who has a good guard.
I don't know, all depends on the school and the coach. I think to what i have seen from Saulo and Mario Sperry they have very much a judo-style philosophy, fast, very efficient and clean on the ground. I really liked their style.
I was actually very surprised when I watched Saulo's DVD's and then Alexander Yashkevitch's. They literally showed the exact same movements.
I guess good groundwork is good groundwork and thats all there is to it.
As far as the Gracies in judo, I saw Xande Ribeiro training with Flavio Canto in some clip and those guys are very respectful of each other. Flavio was training him in judo takedowns. Jacare also seems to have a solid judo background.
I think at the end for Sports, a bjj'er will benefit more from judo than a top judoka from bjj. unless his standup is stellar, he will get thrown and nothing will matter.
"....Remember Jiu-Jitsu is the base everything is build upon. For us BJJers all other martial arts and sports are collection of toolboxes. We just pick whatever tools we feel we need. Tools that work with our base and strategy. We pick it up if it is good make/tweak it work with our base, our strategy our Jiu-Jitsu..."
The only logical thing for Rickson to do to redeem himself is, to within 24 hours hop a flight to Russia; kick down the doors to the Red Devil Gym and challenge Fedor
Unique said: "Moderators this thread has really taken a turn at worse so please lock this thread."
No offense but that was a dumb request. This thread is no worse then most threads on this forum. If you don't like the direction this thread is going simply stop posting on it. Duh!!
