In the beginning, pure drilling is probably more important, but at certain point, rolling with white/blue belts to work on new techniques is the most effective, I think.
It's just that no matter how good an actor your training partner is, he'll just never be able to really simulate natural reactions.
"How about boxing? Never hit the bag or pads, never practice footwork or shadowbox.....just lace em up and bang. LOL. "
Sure, I hear what you're saying, and I agree, but my point is that once you're at a certain level, rolling with white belts is more akin to hitting pads than it is to sparring.
Look at EVERY professional sports team or athlete. They all drill. Do you think a football team just shows up to practice and just play football? No. They drill plays over and over and over, or practice skills like catching or tackling over and over and over.
The simple fact is rolling is way more fun then drilling, that's why most guys don't drill, not because it's not useful.
Another thing to consider about drilling:
- When you're drilling, you don't necessarily have an adrenaline dump going, which means you're breathing more easily, which means you can observe WHEN you're making mistakes.
- When you're rolling, you're full of adrenaline, so you're in more of a fight/flight mode. So, if you're in a problematic situation (i.e. you're about to get choked), it's HARDER to be analytical, because you're focusing on not getting choked.
BJJ is an art that requires a supreme combination of athleticism and analytic skill. Both must be developed to high degrees, but always remember that when training for skill development, you have to be analytical. And this happens, at its best, during drilling.
that's why you need to develop instinct, no-mind.
^^^ and also why drilling is so important.
If you always train with no-mind, you go no-where.
Drilling by far has been the most productive for me. For the last six months, I have been drilling 50-100 triangles per week. This as made my triangle and arm lock submissions go through the roof! Before, I was either timid to go for triangles or I didn't know how to set them up. Now, I snap into triangles so fast that most guys (even purples, browns, and blacks) can't get out. I am also good from both sides.
3 years of sparring w/o drilling didn't do anything for my triangle set ups.
Drilling allows you to get your mind and body in sync. It is like training wheels for your bike.
Both, you need to get the movements down through repetition and you need to fit them into your overal game.
There are also grades of rolling, you can be working all out for the sub, competition style, all the way through to very little resistence going with the flow. The trick is to be able to do the technique perfectly at every stage of the scale.
I've always been taught that champions make habits of what others find mundane and/or boring (there's a similar quote on massmma.net, but the philosophy is the same as I was taught in lacrosse as well as MMA)
No matter how good you get, it's always good to drill techniques on how they should be done.
I think that stretching, drilling and light conditioning is good to warm up. Follow it up with showing some techniques, and then live rolling towards the end of class is the best sequence.
Every BJJ class I've been to operates in this manner.
boboplata - "when have FUN and SKILL DEVELOPMENT ever been the same? "
sex
and there you have it folks.
Live sparring is crucial to overall skill development, I don't think anyone here has professed otherwise. IMO, I would say that drilling is even more important, along the lines of a 60-40 split.
Out of curiosity, what are the belt ranks of you guys who think drilling isn't necessary?
twinkletoesCT - ^^^ and also why drilling is so important.If you always train with no-mind, you go no-where.
this is very clever, almost too clever.personally, i feel dead drills are virtually worthless except when attempting a new tech. does a brownbelt really need to drill a basic armbar at the intro stage of the I method? live drills are always valuable.
I'm reminded of a guy who used to come to the class to roll only after the technique was over. He was more advanced than most of us and was never interested in learning anything new. The rest of us slowly caught him and then passed him, and then he started coming to the class to learn technique.
Different people learn in different ways. There might be better ways to learn or faster ways to learn, but I think we get caught up many times in who does what the correct way.
I need to practice basics as well as advanced moves, I need to drill and I need repetition and I need to study tapes and I need to roll a lot.
But I recognize this as an individual sport so I am responsible for my development more than anyone else. It is up to me to decide if what I am doing is working for me, not someone else or someone else's dogma on proper training methods.
billcosbiguez - twinkletoesCT - ^^^ and also why drilling is so important.If you always train with no-mind, you go no-where.The brown belt can be creative and figure out a way for the drilling to be advanced and/or dynamic. I think it's good to continually practice and sharpen your techniques no matter how elementary they seem. Don't spend countless hours doing so, but a little while in the beginning of class should not be too taxing.
this is very clever, almost too clever.personally, i feel dead drills are virtually worthless except when attempting a new tech. does a brownbelt really need to drill a basic armbar at the intro stage of the I method? live drills are always valuable.
i bet jordan still shot free throws.
The brown belt can be creative and figure out a way for the drilling to be advanced and/or dynamic. I think it's good to continually practice and sharpen your techniques no matter how elementary they seem. Don't spend countless hours doing so, but a little while in the beginning of class should not be too taxing.
exactly right. he is now drilling something other than the dead basic armbar drill.
jordan shot free throws, because they apply directly to a game. in comp. or hard sparring noone will just give up a limp arm for the taking.
billcosbiguez - twinkletoesCT - ^^^ and also why drilling is so important.If you always train with no-mind, you go no-where.
this is very clever, almost too clever.personally, i feel dead drills are virtually worthless except when attempting a new tech. does a brownbelt really need to drill a basic armbar at the intro stage of the I method? live drills are always valuable.
No, but that isn't necessarily what we're discussing. I've been a purple for a few years, and I still do some amount of "dead" reps. Most of my training these days is live drilling mixed with rolling.
Jbraswell makes an excellent point on page 1 when he says that upper belts rolling with lower belts are able to turn the "roll" into live drilling (I do a lot of this). Because the upper belt can direct the action, he can make sure that even while letting his partner into the game, he can successfully execute a single technique, combination, or response quite a few times. This way, both people get some good training out of it.
"exactly right. he is now drilling something other than the dead basic armbar drill."
Yeah, but I still think there is value in doing the basic armbar. What does Rickson Gracie's game consist of? BJ Penn?
These guys have made incredible careers out of doing the basics in competition better than everyone else. How do you think they got so good at the basics? Drilling the moves and sequences, no?
oh, fren!
THE CONTENTION I HAVE IS AGAINST HIGHER LEVEL GUYS drilling dead patterns. if you can make something basic dynamic...,well that's the whole point.
i doubt rickson spends much time drilling 2 man forms.
"i doubt rickson spends much time drilling 2 man forms"
Doesn't Rickson have over 30 - 40 years doing BJJ? Would a guy who has, say 5 years, be a little unfair to compare himself to a man who's done a martial art for over 4 decades?
Rickson has probably done all of the drills as often as he could for the 1st decade of training.
fren, you are confusing the past with the present.