it seems you are confusing the future with the present...
billcosbiguez-
jordan shot free throws, because they apply directly to a game. in comp. or hard sparring noone will just give up a limp arm for the taking.
ok, uncontested jump shots, they rarely exist. the point is, rep training has value.
billcosbiguez - fren, you are confusing the past with the present.
Not really at all, IMO, but to each his own.
demandango -billcosbiguez-
jordan shot free throws, because they apply directly to a game. in comp. or hard sparring noone will just give up a limp arm for the taking.
ok, uncontested jump shots, they rarely exist. the point is, rep training has value.
i never said it has no value, just little.
I agree with Leo Kirby when he says that Bjj is essentially an individual sport and each person is responsible for their own development. Each person should know what works best for them and practice accordingly.
I personally believe that there are guidelines and principles to growth and development in all physical activity like Bjj. But guidelines and principles are flexible and not ridge like rules or laws. So although there may be just a few universal guideline and principles they can be applied and used in many different ways.
Also someone on this thread mentioned Rickson in regards to drilling. Well...I have an interview where Rickson stated in an hour long practice session intermediate to advance Bjj students should spend 40 to 45 minutes drilling and only 15 minutes sparring.
Works for me.
"Also someone on this thread mentioned Rickson in regards to drilling. Well...I have an interview where Rickson stated in an hour long practice session intermediate to advance Bjj students should spend 40 to 45 minutes drilling and only 15 minutes sparring."
Check mate, IMO.
I think drilling is very important and we spend the majority of class doing it. Part of our warm up are 5 min. drills...mount to armbar, armbar escape, armbar escape to triangle, triangle escape to cross mount, cross mount to full mount, etc. and some others.
For me, the repetition of moving from one techinique to another has helped my transitions during rolling.
Every top guy I have trained with sees value in dead reps, good enough for me!
CockneyBlue - Every top guy I have trained with sees value in dead reps, good enough for me!
I dont see how you can go wrong with doing reps... I have been to a few classes when i traveled who did 10 minutes worth of technique and then rolled. If you have someone being creative with your drills you can get great results.
CockneyBlue - Every top guy I have trained with sees value in dead reps, good enough for me!
if by this you mean spending quite a bit of time on dead drills, then i find it unfortunate.
Every single black belt I have trained with always says the same thing about how important drills are. I noticed a huge jump in my game as soon as I started doing more drills.
"if by this you mean spending quite a bit of time on dead drills, then i find it unfortunate"
It kind of seems like you are confusing what drills are all about, IMHO.
The Sultan - Every single black belt I have trained with always says the same thing about how important drills are. I noticed a huge jump in my game as soon as I started doing more drills.
"if by this you mean spending quite a bit of time on dead drills, then i find it unfortunate"
It kind of seems like you are confusing what drills are all about, IMHO.
maybe we have different definitions as to what constitutes stagnant and dynamic drills.
if dead drills are so valuable then why not practice for hours at home with a grappling dumby? a dumby is completely passive, thus, dead.
billcosbiguez -The Sultan - Every single black belt I have trained with always says the same thing about how important drills are. I noticed a huge jump in my game as soon as I started doing more drills.
"if by this you mean spending quite a bit of time on dead drills, then i find it unfortunate"
It kind of seems like you are confusing what drills are all about, IMHO.
maybe we have different definitions as to what constitutes stagnant and dynamic drills.
if dead drills are so valuable then why not practice for hours at home with a grappling dumby? a dumby is completely passive, thus, dead.
I believe our definitions are unclear. I think you are taking the idea way too literal.
If you are practicing sequences, then obviously you can't practice on a dummy. You need someone to give some of the energy you would feel from a resisting opponent.
It's almost impossible to do 100% dead drills anyways. I didn't think that needed to be stated.
Dead drills equals drills where a training partner is giving minimal resistance. This is similar to a warm-up when running. You don't just go out there and start sprinting cold right?
You need to warm up and then work your way up to a higher level pace.
When you lift weights, you don't just start by maxing out your bench, right? You need to warm up.
Same concept.
Drilling is not just static or dead...A lot of drills can be very dynamic in nature, especially if you are creative.
billcosbiguez -The Sultan - Every single black belt I have trained with always says the same thing about how important drills are. I noticed a huge jump in my game as soon as I started doing more drills.
"if by this you mean spending quite a bit of time on dead drills, then i find it unfortunate"
It kind of seems like you are confusing what drills are all about, IMHO.
maybe we have different definitions as to what constitutes stagnant and dynamic drills.
if dead drills are so valuable then why not practice for hours at home with a grappling dumby? a dumby is completely passive, thus, dead.
I also do that (well not a dummy, a heavy bag on the floor). I work my transitions, focusing on how smoothly I can switch from knee to knee or side to side, or into mount and back out again.
I can also shadow roll with nothing more than the mats underneath me.
I am visualising where the other person would be, where the pressures are. I'm learning new ways of balancing, ways of moving. I can do all of this without having to worry about what the other guy is doing.
Also, I can roll with someone using virtually no resistence, switching form position to position, really going with the flow. Feeling where the balance points are, where the energy is pushing me.
Obviously I can also roll full on, going for subs, dominating postion.
The point is to do it all, not just pick one type of training and think that it is the best.
There is no best single training technique, it is the combination that is important.
If you don't get that, I think that as is a shame.
Look...basketball players can and often practice every aspect of the game of basketball by themselves with a ball and a rim, although the game itself is played against active and resisting opponents.
If a basketball player wants to practice, perfect, or master a given shot or dribble move they simply take a basketball go to a basketball court and practice more often than not WITHOUT a so-called resisting partner. The process it NOT complex or complicated. The way most basketball players practice would be consider "dead" by some of you "practice experts" because basketball players do ALOT of repetitions in a so-called static and dead way. How does a basketball player master the hook shot or master driving to the basket with their left hand? ...they simply do 100s of reps of those moves. And regardless of what people may say about that particular way of practicing it WORKS. It has work for years; way long than most of us have been around.
What works for basketball works for Bjj because although they are different physical activities they are both physical activities. And although they are different physical activities they share one thing in common: the skills or techniques of each are applied or performed against so called live and resisting opponents. So whatever practice methods, principles, guidelines etc that are succesfully used in one can successfully be applied to others
So the idea that Bjj "has" to be practiced a certain way, namely the so called live way against resisting opponents is pure nonsense, in my opinion. Bjj can be and probably should be practiced in the same way other similar physical activities are practiced and basketball is an excellent model to follow or use.
I practice Bjj EXACTLY the same way I practice basketball. I do NOT hype up or complicate the process. It works for me. It is a shame that many people complicate practicing or make it into some type of ideology or dogma.
the idea of shadow rolling sounds proposterous as a consistant training toll to me, but if you can do it well that's up to you.
i would rather roll with a real person or practice mount escapes with a resisting partner or something similar.
i don't think basketball is a good comparison, because in basketball you can practice a fadeaway off a crossover at full speed and many other moves without a partner and still gain benefit. personally, i couldn't acquire much gain armbarring the air at full speed.
the idea of shadow rolling sounds proposterous as a consistant training toll to me, but if you can do it well that's up to you.
i would rather roll with a real person or practice mount escapes with a resisting partner or something similar.
i don't think basketball is a good comparison, because in basketball you can practice a fadeaway off a crossover at full speed and many other moves without a partner and still gain benefit. personally, i couldn't acquire much gain armbarring the air at full speed.
the idea of shadow rolling sounds proposterous as a consistant training tool to me
That is because it is. You are absolutley correct. Beyond it's use as a warm up, or to teach the basic mechanics of a movement, it would of course be redundent. That is not to say that repetition training doesn't serve a purpose. It does at a certain stage, or for very task specific agendas. But it is to say that reps done without resistance lack the vital element of timing, which is the cornerstone to all good 'alive' drilling.
Visualize a tennis player who decided the best way to work on their backhand would be to go into their garage every morning and perform thousands of repetitions, swinging their racket over and over in the air without involving any sort of ball. No rational tennis player, or coach, would suggest that. And the tennis player would be just as likely (perhaps more likley) to make their backhand worse, rather then better. Then as a contrast, imagine that same tennis player goes down to the court, and a partner (or a machine) lobs balls at them. They then practice hitting the balls back with their backhand. A smart partner might start with slow, easy to follow shots, and then proceed to a faster pace. That is a very good way to get your backhand better.
That moving ball to the tennis player is the equivalent to a live partner to the Jits player. Again, it's common sense.
As our MMA teams boxing coach Brian Walsh says often, "fighting is about lay ups, not free throws."
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/
www.straightblastgym.com
Matt, Matt, Matt,
Say what you want about shadow rolling, wrestling champs Ken Chertow and Dan Gable and Japanese Judo champ Kashiwazaki swear by it. Shadow rolling, where one strings or chains together a series of moves against an imaginary opponent, is a COMMON training method in wrestling. Ken Chertow, a freestyle wrestling champ and now accomplished coach wrote an excellent article about shadow grappling a few years back. Incidently shadow grappling is essentially the same thing a shadow boxing, that is, it follows the same principle.
It surprises me how unfamiliar you are with commonly used training methods in various physical activities and combat sports. Because of my background, Exercise Science/Physical Education I enjoy studying and researching various methods of practice and training ultilized by athletes of numerous sports and physical activities. And it surprises me you often lamblast some methods of practicing/training that are successfully used by elite athletes in some sports.
For example you said "Visualize a tennis player who decided the best way to work on their backhand would be to go into their garage every morning and perform thousands of repetitions, swinging their racket over and over in the air without involving any sort of ball."Well...I do know the Chinese table tennis team actually does that type of training. I know table tennis is different from Tennis but it does share similarities. Table tennis is a game of precision and in order tp minimizing wasted motion and maximizing rhythm in a given stroke players will often rep a given stroke against the air. he One of the MANY drills the Chinese team will do is have players line up behind a player who is hitting precision shot againt a wall. The players in line CONTANTLY rep the given stroke against the air until their turn to hit the ball against the wall. Like I said they do it for movement and rhythm sake. BUT one thing you're forgetting is NO athlete in other sport/physical activities do any drill or exercise in isolation. So even if a player is doing a skill against "the air" other drills including LIVE competitive matches will TELL the player or coach whether that drill is working or not.
Again using the Basketball model, basketball players practice their basketball skills apart from a resisting partner ALL the time. Heck I know basketball players who lie face on the floor and go through the shoot motion. And believe it or not it actually WORKS.Because Basketball players, tennis players HAVE to compete against a ressiting opponent anyway it really isn't neccessary to practice against one. They ALREADY know what it feels like to apply their skills against a resisting opponent therefore it isn't necessary to constantly practice against one.
It is interesting that your MMA boxing coach said something to the effect: MMA is about layups and not free throws. Well...newsflash layups are practice without a resisting opponent too. So that point really doesn't say much about practicing or repping without resistance. Kareem Abdul Jabber would practice his famous hook shoot (he actually had a double threat combo) 300 times on each hand. And...he would do it against the AIR. It certainly didn't effect his shot negatively. Same principle can applied to Bjj.
And that is the bottomline for me. Because I know what I talk about in my post regarding practice actually WORKS for numerous athletes in a host of competitive sports I am really not worried about people "claiming" what I prescribe is "worthless". What I advocate in terms of practice has been PROVEN and successfully USED. Check the track record.
Matt, Matt, Matt,
My name is actually Matt, not 'matt matt matt'. Is it possible for you to have an adult conversation without being obnoxious?
it surprises me you often lamblast some methods of practicing/training that are successfully used by elite athletes in some sports.
Nope, no 'lambasting' at all. I do believe that repetition and excercise drills hold a very valued place in training. Again, I have written in detail about the use of repetition drilling, as well as all other forms of drills. For those interested here is a long article on that topic:
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/
What I have stated is that these types of drills (and there are many different variations) are not a substitute for drilling alive against a progressively resisting partner in the realm of combat sports. If they were, then traditional Japanese Jui-Jitsu would have as much success against fully resisting opponents as a BJJ player does. After all many *(note: not all) use repetition, kata, and one & two step sparring (two person choreographed forms) as their primary training method. However, even after years of practice most are unable to apply much if anything against a resisting opponent. The contrast with most Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu couldn't be more stark. And the distinction is of course the live drilling and rolling that BJJ incorporates.
You can get quite good at BJJ simply through rolling, and applying your brain to the art. I've seen it done. However, I think you can get better by using rolling, in conjunction with proper drilling. That proper drilling includes a place for repetition training as well.
That stated, I do not believe anyone could get good at BJJ by using repetition training as the primary method, with little to no live rolling or drilling. And therein exists the great distinction between the two. Again, as Rickson has often stated BJJ is about timing. And although repetition training and athletic drills hold a very important place within the tool box of any good coach, the critical element of timing (rolling - live drilling) needs to be integrated to move the athlete forward.
I believe that is what billcosbiguez is pointing out.
As far as my ability as an athletic coach, the performance of my students and athletes speaks for itself.
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/
http://www.straightblastgym.com/