There is a maassive point being missed here.
Because a champion does something DOES NOT MEAN ITS VALUABLE. This is evidenced simply by looking at any "champions workout". The guys who are champions are champions usually because their shotgun approach actually does something right, they just dont pin point where.
Reps and drills are important NO DOUBT in my mind, however if you take 2 twins, make one drill technique 70% and wrestle 30% and then take the other and make him drill 20-30% and wrestle (isolated and normal rolling) 80-70%, the second twin is going to KILL the other one.
That said people look at the SBG methods etc and go...well I like drilling...olympians drill...judoka to osakomi...
No where do they say don't drill. They just warn about the dangers of excessive drilling to replace live wrestling.
P.s I am not part of SBG just my opinion
Matt, Lemon, I think both of you guys must have skipped through my, admittedly quite long, post. I totally agree that there are lots of other important training methodologies. That doesn't take away from the importance of training without resistance.
I can also train sitting in a chair, or in the bath, or sitting in traffic. I internalisethe movements, feel the movements and concentrate on how it should go. It's something I picked up when I used to compete in dressage, as I had to learn complex dressage tests then be able to control a horse through the test it was important to be able to practice wherever I was even without the horse.
I guess some people do not have the kinesthetic ability to internalise the movements and actually feel them. Our brains are all wired differently, and another person might get more out of say watching video of themselves or others.
My main point is that there are lots of ways of training and way to many people focus on looking for the best way. The truth is the best way is a combination that works for you, as an individual at a given time. For another individiual or you at a different time the mix will be different.
I also agree that just by being someone is a champ we should copy what they do. I take more value from talking to the people who train champs.
Cockney i understand completely what you are talking about. I just call it visualization, internalizing sounds good to though. Its the best way i find to learn a new technique.
I think Matt's point is that there are dangers associated with putting TOO much weight on these methods. As an accompanying method i completely agree they are beneficial.
"Reps and drills are important NO DOUBT in my mind, however if you take 2 twins, make one drill technique 70% and wrestle 30% and then take the other and make him drill 20-30% and wrestle (isolated and normal rolling) 80-70%, the second twin is going to KILL the other one"
I totally disagree. (The comparison is a tough debate anyways because of how many factors are being assumed)
I think the guy who works on technique a lot of the time will easily beat the other guy because he knows how to actually apply a majority of his stuff in a fast paced environment.
In grappling/fighting, technique beats strength. It's when you have both that makes you the most dangerous.
There is a balance needed between practicing reps, drills, etc and there is a time to be sparring hard all the time. You need to do both and they both have significant value in terms of development.
I think the guy who works on technique a lot of the time will easily beat the other guy because he knows how to actually apply a majority of his stuff in a fast paced environment.
Then how come JJJ guys almost never beat BJJ guys?
The Sultan -
In grappling/fighting, technique beats strength. It's when you have both that makes you the most dangerous.
in fighting technique and physical attributes always work in tandem and aren't directly colliding against each other.
if 2 similarly built guys fight then the one w/ better skill will probably win. however, if a 140 lb bjj purple decides to fight an untrained person w/ the characteristics of an NFL offensive linemen like leonard davis, well...
martial artists musn't fool themselves.
Matt ended this thread several posts ago. Drilling with no resistance and sparring being polor ends of the spectrum; it also important to work everything in between..... ranging from live drilling with varying degrees of resistance to situational sparring.
And m.g. proves once again that he's an idiot and an asshole.
And m.g. proves once again that he's an idiot and an asshole.
oh, fren.
LEMon - Cockney i understand completely what you are talking about. I just call it visualization, internalizing sounds good to though. Its the best way i find to learn a new technique.
I think Matt's point is that there are dangers associated with putting TOO much weight on these methods. As an accompanying method i completely agree they are beneficial.
Couldn't agree more, however Matt straight up says that shadow rolling is preposterous. Well maybe it doesn't work for him due to his mental tendancies (by this I am going back to the point that people are wired differently not trying to be insulting), however it works for a large number of people, and is therefore worth trying.
Matt,
Warning: long post
First off, I am not trying to be obnoxious. If anything I was trying to be light hearted I didn't mean to offend you. Like I stated before in my post I am simply trying to make a point as well as express a point of view. Please do not take what I say personal. Life is way too short to take whatever is discussed here personally.
Secondly I must address this point. You said: "I do not believe anyone could get good at BJJ by using repetition training as the primary method, with little to no live rolling or drilling." For the record I NEVER stated or advocate that one should do repetition training in isolation or apart from live rolling or drilling. In a physical activity like Bjj one can NEVER really participate in it without ever live rolling or sparring (incidently I think so-called live drilling is a type or form of sparring) at some time or point. So the idea of doing repetition training in Bjj and nothing else is ridiculous and unrealistic.
What I've said numerous time, which you may not understand, is in a physical activity like Bjj where sparring is ALREADY a very BIG part one doesn't have to develop or create for himself a so-called live training mindset or philosophy.
It is my opinion that with Bjj as well as with Judo, boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling and similar combat sports one doesn't have to buy into the SBGi dogma and philosophy of liveness because that so-called "live" component is ALREADY within those combat sports anyway. AND most, if not all, participates of those combat sport, for many years, intuitively in some form or shape train or practice "live" anyway.
Now in regards to practice, it my personal belief that there is a very intuitive component to the concept of practice. And although some people like yourself feel that in order to get the best result one ought to practice in a certain way I believe from both personal experience and observation that success in regards to practice depends alot on the individual. I feel that most people, even in a physical activity like Bjj, ultimately figure out how to learn for themselves and figure out how to best develop and practice their own skills.
Like CockneyBlue stated you and others may think "shadow rolling" or "shadow grappling" is worthless. And the reason may be because it doesn't or hasn't worked for you. And the reason why may be because you simply don't like practicing that way. How one feels about a certain thing has a big effect on the effectiveness of that thing for that individual. BUT just because it doesn't work for you doesn't me it doesn't work. Like I stated "shadow rolling" or "shadow grappling" worked for others.
When I write on this subject I try to point out the diversity of practice methods in the world of physical activities/sport which Bjj is, of course, apart. There are few principles but many expressions of those principles. And numerous people have successfully used practice methods that you or I may not agree with but we can't deny it works for them. Practice in and of itself is never the end but rather the means to and end so how one reaches a certain result or point is not as important as the result itself. And the way Bjj is, one can also TEST for oneself whether a given method or way of practice works for oneself by the results it yields in ones performance.
Now you can argue with me about how your method of practicing yields results but I can say the same thing. In fact, I'll go further and say I really don't have a single method but ultilize various ideas that derive from principle and concepts of practice that have been PROVEN and used successfully by past and present athletes.
My feeling is instead of buying to a given philosophy or method one should test and try for oneself.
Drilling with no resistance and sparring being polor ends of the spectrum; it also important to work everything in between..... ranging from live drilling with varying degrees of resistance to situational sparring.
Exactly right. All the good BJJ coaches I have had the pleasure of working with over the last couple of decades have incorporated lots of alive drilling. In Rickson's case it's primarily positional sparring, but the element of timing is the key. Being a good coach, or being able to run a good class is a skill like anything else. I am grateful to the coaches who have helped me understand those skillsets better.
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/
http://www.straightblastgym.com/
"if a 140 lb bjj purple decides to fight an untrained person w/ the characteristics of an NFL offensive linemen like leonard davis, well...
martial artists musn't fool themselves."
A guy I used to train with weighed 145 lbs and is just freakishly sick at BJJ. Needless to say, he folds up a 230 - 240 lb TRAINED guy on his back and keeps him there and routinely submits him.
I'm not saying it's the norm, but lots of guys out there are very good at what they do.
What this whole intermission has to do with the thread at hand, however, is beyond me.
Carry on.
LOL @ "if a 140 lb bjj purple decides to fight an untrained person w/ the characteristics of an NFL offensive linemen like leonard davis, well...
martial artists musn't fool themselves."
Gil was a purple belt.
that is not 360 lb leonard davis and that is not a fight or are you blind?
that is a grappling match. nfl offensive linemen by nature have great takedown defense.
i'm a purple belt and have submitted 300 pounders easily in grappling only, but i don't think i could beat davis
LEMon - Reps and drills are important NO DOUBT in my mind, however if you take 2 twins, make one drill technique 70% and wrestle 30% and then take the other and make him drill 20-30% and wrestle (isolated and normal rolling) 80-70%, the second twin is going to KILL the other one.
Wrestlers actually do 70-80% drilling and 20-30% sparring.
RealPosition - Matt ended this thread several posts ago. Drilling with no resistance and sparring being polor ends of the spectrum; it also important to work everything in between..... ranging from live drilling with varying degrees of resistance to situational sparring.
RP's statement sums it up imo. It will always vary with who needs more of what along that spectrum, but i think everyone needs at least some of each level.
Anyone who does Bjj will encounter so called live training. Like I said time and time again so called live training is a natural and intrinsic part of Bjj. It is extremely hard to be involved in Bjj and not experience so called live training.
The reality of Bjj, in terms of practice and training, is one will NATURALLY, INSTINCTIVELY and INTUITIVELY move through the spectrum forum member RealPostion described. That's the NATURE of Bjj.
One of my big problems with SBGi is they have taken a way of practicing which ALREADY used by everyone, in some form or fashion, in Bjj and made it into some new age ideological philosophy. The way SBGi promotes their so-called aliveness "theology" one would think no Bjj school ever heard, let alone use, so called live drilling.
Honestly, name one legit Bjj school or coach that doesn't use some form of live drilling. The fact that most DO makes SBGi's rhetoric in my opinion redundant. It is like they are preaching to the choir.
billcosbiguez I can see its not a fight though Leonard does try and hurt him at the end. I am not delusional, but I dont think he would have beat Gil in a real fight either in fact Gil would have taken him down EASIER as he wouldnt have been sprawling as he punched. Obviously Gil is not your average purple belt though.
m.g I think the point is that there is just a danger with TOO much drilling. No one is arguing that BJJ guys dont train "alive" lol. HOWEVER alot dont train alot of isolation which is the key to the SBG method.