it has been a great discussion. and, i do agree with ben on the importance of dynamic, more real to life uchikomi. im meerly of the opinion that you have to learn to walk before you run. i think its awesome that ben's students can do a reasonable throw in a dynamic setting after only a few practices. thats awesome in itself.
but, i just have a curiosity as to how well they really understand exactly what it is that their bodies are required to do and how it is that they will adjust to more complicated patterns and combinations when the time comes. static uchikomi provides a simple platform for everything else to come from-- thats my main point.
-resnick
ps. im sure ben has already figured out a way to teach his students the scenarious i mentioned above-- im just unable to see it in my own head.
I have played judo in Japan for about a year and a half and I'd have to say that my experience with uchi-komi has been pretty similar to Resnick's. I train at Waseda University in Tokyo (who sent a time to practice in North America, including a trip to San Jose State, a while back) and have yet to attend a practice that didn't open up with warm-up, a few sets of linear moving uchi-komi, at least 100 static uchikomi, and then 3-5 sets of combination uchikomis which are generally done in a free moving situation. As I said, this is the manner in which practice opens everyday regardless of what is be practiced later, be it mostly ne waza, tachi-waza, drills, or a mix of the three.
I have attended joint practices with several other universities and they all seem to open up in a manner similar to this. Ben, what does your coach (from Tokai right?) think about uchi-komi?
-Blitzer
"Uchi Komi is absolutely necessary to improve technique. Limiting yourself to "moving" or "static" is senseless though. Do them both. Then throw for throw over and over and over. Repetition is what builds that muscle memory and hopefuly one day it just clicks. "
No, it's not.
I can and do improve my technique without doing any uchikomi.
This isn't to say that uchikomi cannot improve technique. Just that is not absolutely necessary.
Ben Reinhardt
Josh wrote:"it has been a great discussion. and, i do agree with ben on the importance of dynamic, more real to life uchikomi. im meerly of the opinion that you have to learn to walk before you run. i think its awesome that ben's students can do a reasonable throw in a dynamic setting after only a few practices. thats awesome in itself."
Thanks, Josh.
"but, i just have a curiosity as to how well they really understand exactly what it is that their bodies are required to do and how it is that they will adjust to more complicated patterns and combinations when the time comes."
Understandig comes with practice, there is no need for them to understand much at first about specifics. I want them to move freely, attack freely, and have an positive attitude. Judo is about movement, timing, speed, being creative and adaptable, flexible, action and reaction. If you teach people that from the start, then that is what they will fall back on under stress.
Combinations are introduced early, very early. maybe in the first practice, depending on the overall level of the class.
The point is to introduce elements of the complete skills of Judo very early...that imprints on the student so that their whole attitude and way of looking at Judo is correct from the start.
"static uchikomi provides a simple platform for everything else to come from-- thats my main point.
-resnick"
The difference between the approach I use and the method Josh is talking about can be boiled down to this: Uchikomi starts with the specific and then moves to the general (randori/shiai). The approach I use starts with the general (which is where you end up anyway), and continually refines the performance. Starting with lots of static uchikomi is a technique based way of learning, it starts with specific technical skills.
"ps. im sure ben has already figured out a way to teach his students the scenarious i mentioned above-- im just unable to see it in my own head."
I have indeed, but I got most of my ideas along these lines from reading Geof Gleesons' 'Judo for the West', "Judo Inside Out", and "Judo Games", plus various stuff that Gerald Lafon has written and spoken about.
Just think about what is most important in Judo skill, and it all flows naturally from there.
Ben Reinhardt
" have played judo in Japan for about a year and a half and I'd have to say that my experience with uchi-komi has been pretty similar to Resnick's. I train at Waseda University in Tokyo (who sent a time to practice in North America, including a trip to San Jose State, a while back) and have yet to attend a practice that didn't open up with warm-up, a few sets of linear moving uchi-komi, at least 100 static uchikomi, and then 3-5 sets of combination uchikomis which are generally done in a free moving situation. As I said, this is the manner in which practice opens everyday regardless of what is be practiced later, be it mostly ne waza, tachi-waza, drills, or a mix of the three."
One thing to consider is that you are dealing with advanced judoka, who have trained that way all their lives in Judo. They are accustomed to that, and are comfotrable with it. I deal mostly with beginners, and am talking about teaching newbies. The same approach works really well with all levels of students, though, if they can keep an open mind. Notice that you mentioned drills...uchikomi is a kind of drill, but as you mention it separately, I assume you do more than just uchikomi.
I have attended joint practices with several other universities and they all seem to open up in a manner similar to this. Ben, what does your coach (from Tokai right?) think about uchi-komi?
-Blitzer
blitzer wrote:"I have attended joint practices with several other universities and they all seem to open up in a manner similar to this. Ben, what does your coach (from Tokai right?) think about uchi-komi?
-Blitzer"
This is really funny, because after practice on Thursday I asked him about this, partially because of this very discussion. I had my own hypothesis as to why he is teaching us the way he is, and asked him about it.
Under Ken at ISU, we basically do very little uchikomi. In fact, I did not do a single uchikomi at practice all last week. This has been the general pattern from his arrival last November, although at first we did do more uchikomi, but always with throwing iterspersed.
I'll try to relay the gist of what Ken told me.
In Japan, judo teaching is mostly patience. The sensei says, "do this" (uchikomi) and you will get better, coaches teach mostly patience, so lots of uchikomi.
In America, he has tried that method, and sees that the students get bored (we are talking mostly beginners/intermediates here, not hardcore very experienced guys like at Waseda, Tokai, or SJSU where Josh resides).
So he tried different methods, progressivly moving from static to dynamic uchikomi to mostly throwing, including combinations designed to build fundamental Judo skills/movements. And of course randori. And that method has been VERY successful here. The point is to keep people interested in what they are doing, and to have them practice skills that are needed in randori and shiai.
I have seen phenomenal changes and improvments in the students who have stayed in Judo here. Watching our inexperienced students compete at local and regional events, even at nationals (collegiate and seniors)was at times amazing. They did not always win, but they actually applied, or attempted to apply, real skills (as opposed to isolated techniques) in shiai.
Ben Reinhardt