Savate

Ok, I know that some of you are planning on creating some Savate threads later on, but I have some preliminary questions from someone with very little knowledge of the art (myself).

I've watched some of Salem Assli's tapes form Panther Productions and most of Daniel Duby's tapes from SBG Productions. From what I've seen, I really like the low chasse and I like the low fuete to the inside of the knee (sp?) if I have on my Timberlands.

For those of you who practice Savate regularly, what do you think the major benefits are from training this system that you would not get from other kickboxing systems like Muay Thai? I know Matt has mentioned the broken rhythm aspect before. Do you all agree that this is a major benefit? Are kicks like the fuete effective without the boot? I guess what I'm asking is, for you, are there any principles, techniques, etc. that are specific to Savate that without a doubt make you a better fighter? Thanks!

C.J.

interesting

"From what I've seen, I really like the low chasse and I like the low fuete to the inside of the knee (sp?) if I have on my Timberlands."

This is really good if you put it together as a low-line combo. Throw the fouette to the inside knee, and time it, so that when he enters, he eats the chasse on the way in. This is a good combo who for guys who like to absorb kicks, only to enter with punches.

"For those of you who practice Savate regularly, what do you think the major benefits are from training this system that you would not get from other kickboxing systems like Muay Thai?"

It's like comparing judo and bjj. BOTH are effective and both have benefits. One may fill the gap in your game better than the other. With that said...

Savate emphasizes a more mobility, and a different type of rhythm than MT.

MT footwork is really more of a "stalking" type of footwork. Those small steps that MT fighters take are meant to hide their intention to inch towards their opponent, cutting the ring, in order to land the heavy blows. This strategy makes sense, because the sport allows the plamb and elbows and knees, so cornering an opponent to set up the heavy ammunition is ideal for this sport. Think Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, or a young Mike Tyson for this one.

Savate footwork, on the other hand, is about constant LATERAL movement, in order to take advantage of angles. Since the sport doesn't allow elbows and knees or the plamb, the sport is really about creating the proper distance and position so that your opponent is on the LONG end of your strikes. In MT, after a kick, you almost always end up clinching, and emphasizing the shorter tools (elbows, knees). In savate, after a kick, you emphasize the LONGER tools (punches and short range kicking). You get in and get out, delivering the most damage, while absorbing as little damage as possible. A good boxing example of this is the Leonard/Hagler fight. Leonard controlled the distance with good mobility and ring generalship, pouncing with combinations once he saw the opening, then getting out of range without absorbing any serious punishment.

GREAT post JKDfighter! Couldn't have said it better myself!

JKDfighter:

this is WEIRD! LOL!!

"I know Matt has mentioned the broken rhythm aspect before. Do you all agree that this is a major benefit?"

This is very true. Hard to explain online. Like BJJ, I think it's best experienced than explained.

"Are kicks like the fuete effective without the boot? I guess what I'm asking is, for you, are there any principles, techniques, etc. that are specific to Savate that without a doubt make you a better fighter?"

Yes, the fouette is effective even without the shoe.

The emphasis on mobility, range control, broken rhythm can't but help improve your stand-up.

"A chasse d'arret is a low stop kick that will quickly teach you alot about where Bruce was coming from with the Jeet Tek."

This is so true. People don't understand how much Bruce took from savate. I recently watched Guro I. do "jun fan mitt drills"...and they were basically SAVATE mitt drills. Same rhythm, same strategy. I remember Prof. Assli remarking to me once how similar jun fan and savate were.

And to give you an idea of what kind of stand-up to expect from savate, and how it crosses over to other formats: Erik Paulson's stand-up is STX, savate-thai-cross. And K-1's "Mr. Perfect", Ernesto Hoost, was a savateur in France (I think he belonged to Club Clichy (sp?) - but don't quote me on the club).

"Savate footwork, on the other hand, is about constant LATERAL movement, in order to take advantage of angles".

Heres just a reflection of someone who has had a small introduction to Savate. Back in 1986 I used to have a French student in my Muay Thai class over here in the UK. He was a class guy who worked as security for a very posh local restaurant. He had good judo skills and I used to meet up with him to swop Thai for throws and collar chokes etc.

One day his uncle was over and sat drinking coffee as he watched us do some Thai pad work and work on some chokes. Every now and then his uncle would add points as he was on the French judo team.

We agreed the next time we worked out I would spar the uncle at just boxing. I had just had 16 amateur boxing matches (all of which I had won) and three Mauy Thai fights with elbows allowed etc. So I had no problem with contact.

The boxing sparring consisted of him (the uncle) tooling me with lots of lateral movement. Good game plan as I am six foot six and he was about 5"8.

Up until then the only thing I had seen was something called "French boxing" which was really, really crap. I stopped all of the people I sparred with leg or rib kicks. It turns out that the uncle was trained in some thing called Savate which was "different".

Main points he made was that it was a boot/hard shoe art (something I forgot until I saw Matt T"s first aliveness tape).

The use of footwork which was just great. The way the hits felt different, perhaps one of the Savate guys can help out here as to why. He shut down my leg with a lead leg toe shot/side kick.

Real Savate seems to have a lot to offer but the only class I have seen in the UK just did not look or feel right, this may have changed over the last ten years.

Without being to "political" I have seen several JKD instructors (resident over here in the UK) who showed Savate or stuff from it, which whilst good just did not convey the pain I felt or the skill I felt in 1986.

Perhaps some of the Savate people on here could tell us what to look for. Is the differance from "street savate" and savate?

Great story, boyscout.

As far as why those kicks feel so different, here's a quick explanation. The fouette (or round) kick of savate is thrown using the EXACT mechanics of a thai kick: full 180 pivot of the supporting leg, 90 rotation of the hips, with an emphasis of putting all your weight INTO the kick. Everybody knows how bad a thai kick feels when they're on the receiving end. Imagine that kick's target surface area REDUCED to the tip of a very hard savate shoe. That's the reason for the unique type of pain a savate kick can deliver.

"I have seen several JKD instructors (resident over here in the UK) who showed Savate or stuff from it, which whilst good just did not convey the pain I felt or the skill I felt in 1986."

Ah yes, the pain one feels when they receive a fouette bas. You never forget it, the first time it happens. :) Not many people really take the time to go to france to upgrade and then maintain their training. Luckily, my instructor does that, so my savate is up to date.

"lead leg toe shot/side kick."

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about with Calbert in my first post. It's a good combo to shut down someone who likes to enter with punches. Sounds like you sparred a REAL savateur.

As for "street savate" and savate...hard to say. I think Duby was the one who coined the phrase "street savate", and as far as I know, he's legit. But, of course, his savate is going to be different from the active gyms and fighters in France. It's like learning BJJ from a tape, and then training at Gracie Barra in Brazil. Same stuff, but different feel.

4 Ranges,JKDFIGHTER good post.

Nice info guys! I have noticed some similarities (based on the small amount of Savate that I've seen) between Savate and Jun Fan and I've also herd Guro Dan use that quote that JKDFIGHTER mentioned earlier regarding the hammer Savate kick vs. the baseball bat Thai kick. This could be a good topic of discussion the next time I see Guro Dan at the Southeast Martial Arts Conference.

Cool, looks like I have to go back to my Savate videos to pick up some more info so I can try it when I spar in Thai. (Ahhh, so many things to train and so little time).

C.J.

JKDfighter is correct about the term savate. The boxe francaise curriculum is the ring sport version. Savate is the blanket term that encompasses all the arts, which includes chausson, lutte parisienne, le canne and le baton. The lutte parisienne stuff is pretty crazy. Interestingly, if one looks at old drawings or savate manuals, a lot of the chausson/lutte looks like shooto, with single legs, ankle picks, etc.

"Many "JKD" instructors barely train Savate, if at all, and then try to use it or worse yet, teach it."

I've heard the same.

I didn't really appreciate Savate until I "sparred" (at like 10%) with Roy Harris during a private lesson last August. I don't think I hit him once! He kept me off-balance with lots of combination kicks to the legs and toe kicks to my thigh. I now have a profound respect for Savate! I wish I could train it around here!

~TT

savate is so under rated in the US and the MMA scene.
I trained it when i had access to instructors.

great stuff

Just out of curiousity, is there a list of Savate instructors in the US here? One of my sparring partners in college did a little Boxe Francaise, but he's gone off to grad school. I thought it was some pretty awesome stuff.

How are the Daniel Duby tapes?

Being a student of Roy Harris, I've had the opportunity to train some Savate under him.

The style is incredible. I studied TKD for about 5 years which gave me something of an edge in learning what we're taught of it. I had the hip strength to throw the kicks and fake with them.

Has anyone ever tried sparring Thai/Boxing/Savate fashion? I found that Savate changes the equation substantially. Working Thai Boxing into the mix becomes much more difficult because of the different angles that Savate provides. From my experience, it's more difficult to close in and clinch because of the low chasse and coup de pied bas kicks

tly:

the only ones I know of are my instructor Armando (NJ), and Salem Assli out in California. I don't know if Duby is teaching on a formal basis. I know Guy Chase is an instructor under Prof. Salem, but I'm not sure where he's located. There's also Erik Paulson, but his is a savate/thai mix, so I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for. Erik's stuff is seriously good stuff regardless.

But, as you can see, that's how rare Savate is in the U.S.

4 Ranges--

Damn, that's a pity. Nothing around Chicago I guess. Oh, well.

Maybe the next time I'm out in Jersey visiting family I'll stop in and train with yinz for a bit. ;)

KWJ:

I haven't seen the Duby tapes, but I saw the Salem Assli tapes, and they're very easy to misjudge. I think there are sections that are pretty good, but, IMHO, it focuses on the "flowery" aspects of the art.

Armando did lend me an instructional on savate in french, and that was quite good. Quite a few savate champions were there demonstrating, so I got to see the "up to date" savate.

YOu can also visit our school's website, www.wayofnoway.com. There's info on savate there, plus a link to a discussion forum.

Oh, which reminds me, there is a Maryland savate group, but not sure where they are.

At any rate, anyone is welcome to come train at the academy get their savate on.

I agree with 4R, not too impressed with Salem's tape. Pretty removed from the reality of the ring IMO. I wish there was a site that distributed BF fight tapes in the US.

Even when I was in Paris, I was limited to how many tapes I could stock up on because of the economics of the whole thing. You pay 30 bucks there for the tape and then another 15-20 to get them transfered to american VHS.