"As for Goes vs. Shamrock, that was under Pancrase rules, and Shamrock used rope escapes to avoid submission holds."
True. In the Goes/Shamrock match, they were allowed five 'rope escapes.' (On the fifth grab, you got TKO'ed)
The origin of this rule comes from professional wrestling where the 'foot on the ropes' stops a three count or grabbing a rope breaks a submission. They wisely got rid of this rule later on.
Sato did beat Lewis in their rematch, but their first fight, which didn't have judges, Lewis beat him pretty good.
Lewis Sato 1 had the best move ever... Lewis looking over to his corner, pretending to hear something... then turning back really fast and punching Sato. :)
i may be wrong but my opinion is these days the style will not determine the outcome of a mma fight,i do bjj and got started in it when bjj was dominating,i still believe it is the best single art to learn,but i now realize without the heart of a warrior and all the right crosstraining by itself no 1 art is enough to win.some guys that fight,back then or even now ,doesnt have what it takes to be a champion,regardless of what they train in.
"Furthermore, then is '97-98, around the time that Frank Shamrock beat Goes "
actually the fight was a draw, and for the most part Goes made Shamrock look silly, even after his ankle got messed up Goes was still able to take down Frank pass his guard and mount him, unfortanetly he couldn't hit him from there though
Though Horn did take it to Shamrock, Frank did still submit him and Frank always got dominated positionally by his opponents but he would alway get out and come back to kick their ass (Lober, Enson, etc).
It may not exactly what this thread is about but...
Right after Japanese saw Royce in UFC 1, Rikcson and Royler came in Japan and beat Japanese shoot wrestlers left and right. They thought Gracies were simply invincible even with Japanese rich heritage of MMA.
However, after a few but seemingly long years for Japanese MMA fans, first break through came in not from Shoot/Prowrestlers but from Judo guy named Akira Shoji.
When he made a draw in match with Renzo in Pride 1, 1997, they felt for the first time, waking up from Gracie nightmare can be near even though their invincible hero Takada was no match to Rickson in the same event.
Saku's memorable first UFC won against Conan came a few months after.
I just thought Akira Shoji deserves some credit here.
When Horn made his UFC debut, I remember them saying he was a blue belt in BJJ. He certainly has other skill sets, but he gave Frank a run for his money, illustrated by Frank's wiping his brow at the end of the fight as if to say "That was a close one!" He only even managed to catch Horn with a tricky kneebar after getting taken down (which was pretty damn cool, I thought.)
I think part of the problem is that Japanese fight fans had sort of skewed ideas about who was good and who wasn't due to works. Takada, Otsuka, etc. are guys who basically get their ass kicked by everybody, but were very popular for some reason. I mean, many people thought Takada was better than Sak, which is totally ludicrous in hindsight.
Funaki-Pancrase/Maeda-Rings/Takada-UWF/Fujiwara all came from Inoki's NJPW, the largest pro-wrestling org for 3 decades. NJPW gave the reality to Pro-Wrestling by introducing Karl Gotche's CACC and hold techs. But to survive as a show biz org, they brought too much works and stupid moves over the times. It eventually leave audiences/popurarity away gradually.
In 80s, New organizations by Funaki/Maeda/Takada/Fujiwara tried to bring back new reality to pro-wrestling by going back to Karl Gotch's CACC styles.
However, it was matter of time as those groups again faced financial difficulties and started showing unrealistic fake/moves.
Pro-wrestling has never been and never will be MMA.
So, they had to wait new orgs as the next generation.
Influebced by UFC and Gracies, KOK/Pride/Pancrase(new)/Shoot were finally introduced in Japan by breaking its pro-westling casts.
Less flashy and Position Orientated = Slower and very boring.
That's always the problem.
Who'd want to see positional anacondas like Sperry (when he grapples) and Kikuta when you can see people who really go after the sub like JJ Machado and Rumina Sato?
I didnt see the fight but apparently JJ looked good early in the fight but Trigg caugt JJ coming in on a double with a well timed knee and JJ starting squirting blood badly.
The picture I saw after was JJ still on the ground after the fight was stopped. I have no idea if JJ was hurt or just disappointed but Trigg is simple a bad man that smashes people.
It should also be noted that Trigg fought in the first Abu Dhabi (98) and he really couldnt have been doing sub-grappling that long at that point and in a pure sub-grappling match with no striking against Renzo Gracie, Renzo still only managed a controversial decision over Trigg.
Those 2 fights (Trigg also fought Iha but I dont think Iha ever got it to the ground) are what made me believe Trigg was gonna beat Charuto (though Charuto still gets massive props for almost tapping both Hughes AND Trigg, imagine if he pulled it off against both!).
Your Father is correct about the trigg fight, i watched it expecting it to be some sort of robbery, but the takedown he claims did not and could not happen is there clear as day, although i think Renzo got sweep points for it rather than it being considered a takedown
" Ken vs. Royce 2 was a good example of a BJJ guy getting beat on for 30 minutes - even though it was a "draw"."
No, that was the first example of 'lay and pray.' The only meaningful strike landed by Shamrock came after a restart. Shammy just used his size advantage and strong base to turtle up in Royce's guard for a half hour, what an amazing display of - well, nothing. 30 minutes of snoozing.