I also asked this on the BJJ forum but have gotten no responses.
It has commonly be stated here and many places around the Internet that in the early days of mixed martials arts competition, Shootwrestlers or Shooto guys, the only other major Submission Grapplers out there at the time other than BJJ'ers, were "exposed" and consistently beaten by BJJ practitioners. This then lead, according to what I have read, to radical changes taking place in the approach of Japanese Grapplers who came from ShootWrestling/Pancrase/Shooto backgrounds.
I have a number of questions about this:
1) Could someone give me a list of some matches pitting very good Pancrase/Shootwrestling/Shooto guys facing off against BJJ'ers where the Pancrase/Shootwrestling guys lost or got "exposed"?
2) Are there any other matches, in the early days of MMA, between Pancrase/Shootwrestling guys that ended in favor of the Pancrase/Shootwrestling guys?
3) When did the Pancrase/Shootwrestling grappling types eventually adapt their games to the point where BJJ players were no longer able to plain and simply dominate and the Pancrase/Shootwrestling guys became just as good at the BJJ'ers? I would think that this happened sometime around the time that Sakuraba and Royce fought, but I could be mistaken.
If anybody could please supply the answers to the questions that I posted above, it would be most appreciated.
frank shamrock vs allan goes was a good match for both sides of the argument. Goes had Shamrock in a very tight kimura from the guard and RNC and later on Frank broke Goes's anckle via heelhook.
I think the divide still is there as it was in the "early days". BJJ guys are still better from the guard and their positional game is tighter in general. Shoot guys are better a leglocks and wrestling. Shoot guys learned to defend against BJJ guys better and use more wrestling to stay on top or scramble out to their feet to sprawl and brawl. BJJ guys in turn got little better with wrestling to get to the ground.
Just like it was before, it's who can impose their game wins.
"Shamrock lost because he wasn't familiar with BJJ positioning"
How so? It looked to me that Royce was just the superior grappler who caught Ken in the scramble.
Royce shoots, Ken turns him over, Royce goes to guard, Ken goes for ankle lock, Royce goes with it, escapes and then a scramble ensues where Royce gets back control (from the side) and chokes him out. What does that have to do with "BJJ positioning?"
To me, that was just BJJ being generally superior, that didnt indicate anything to do with "positioning" but I know you cant resist trying to make your posts sound more "technical" than the actual case actually was so its all good.
"Shamrock has erroneously stated that Royce used the sleeve to choke him, and that's false."
I dont recall Ken ever "erroneously" stating that but I do remember distinctly him saying that he got "caught up in the gi" which he wasnt used to. You can take that for whatever thats worth but at least "erroneously" sounds "technical" too.
Conan is the worst blackbelt ever, and despite the shitty stoppage there is no reason why Sak should have gotten another shot in the same night. Especially because he pulled that shit crying on the mic for 30 min until they let him get a "do-over." Fucking pathetic, that was.
Royce grabbed his sleeve to complete the choke. There was far too much distance between him and Shammy for him to do a standard RNC. That said, I think that was a pretty good indication that Shootfighters had some severe limitations as far as their grappling went at the time.
I think the case of Rumina Sato might be an example of a Japanese Shootfighter who is still one of the most explosive submission artists the game has seen in MMA but in pure grappling (Abu Dhabi) he didnt fair too good against the top BJJ guys.
But then again Mach and Uno did beat some top BJJ guys (Mach beat Iha and Pederneiras, Uno beat John Lewis and Pedro Duarte) though they both got schooled by Jean Jaque...though JJ schools most BJJ guys period.
Then again, I believe Mach's background is judo originally and Uno was a freestyle wrestler so many of the top japanese sub guys are a mix of styles, Sakuraba, Sudo, etc. included.
If Ryan G comes around, I'd be curious to know what Rumina Sato's background was originally. I think Takase was a judo guy, Kikuta was aswell...
"When did the Pancrase/Shootwrestling grappling types eventually adapt their games to the point where BJJ players were no longer able to plain and simply dominate and the Pancrase/Shootwrestling guys became just as good at the BJJ'ers? I would think that this happened sometime around the time that Sakuraba and Royce fought, but I could be mistaken."
I would say that Frank Shamrock did it earlier then that (beating Horn, Enson, drawing with Goes.) I would say the main thing is that Shootwrestling guys added the BJJ positioning system to their game.
If anything, Horn's relative inexperience and impressive showing versus Shamrock showed how tough a relatively new BJJ guy could be.
The guys in Shooto have some pretty great grappling, but one reason they have had some success against top BJJ guys is lack of familiarity on the part of the BJJ guys with no-gi. Which is not to say that they don't train it, but a lot of them train for sport BJJ, and the Shooto guys almost always grapple without the gi.
machiavelli- it's been a while since I saw that fight, but I seem to remember Royce only catching one clean shot, due to the standup, which swelled his eye up bad and caused him to leave the UFC. I don't recall anyone taking a "beating" in that fight.
Royler was the only gracie to compete on the jvt cards. He defeated Asahi by rare naked choke at the 1996 event. Many of the fights were japan verus brazil though. Mach beat bjj black belt Bunn on the 1999 show. Uno tko'ed Botelho at the 1998 show. Sato defeated John Lewis by armbar at the 1997 show.
"But then again Mach and Uno did beat some top BJJ guys (Mach beat Iha and Pederneiras, Uno beat John Lewis and Pedro Duarte) though they both got schooled by Jean Jaque...though JJ schools most BJJ guys period."
Uno fought Pederneiras to a draw in a mma bout as well. Jean Jacques is an awesome grappler. Of course in mma, it would be different story with him verus Uno or Mach. JJ cant punch with one of his hands.
Uh, when people say, "exposed", I would think that it means "utter dominance", not slim wins like when Royce beat Ken Shamrock.
Is Ken vs. Royce the only notable example of a Shootwrestling vs. BJJ type fight in the early days of MMA wherein the BJJ'er came out on top? The way I had heard it, many people made it seem like there were dozens of instances in which good Shootwrestlers were beat by BJJ guys in the early days of MMA. Can someone point to some of these other examples?
Furthermore, then is '97-98, around the time that Frank Shamrock beat Goes and Sakuraba beat Conan, around the time where things evened out on the grappling front in MMA between Shootwrestlers and BJJ'ers?
I can't remember who it was, but it was a japanese shoot fighter who was the first person to make a BJJ Black belt submit in a match. It was via heelhook. Somebody please fill the names in for me. Was it Yuki Nakai?