Should takedowns be counted if not secured?

If a fighter gets a takedown and the fighter defends and gets back up within seconds should it be considered a takedown in the scoring criteria?

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No. A takedown in the absence of an opportunity to further position, strike, or submit, is no more significant than using footwork to set up a shot or avoid one.

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not unless every other area of the fight there was nothing to judge.

if not much striking happened or it was very very close then that quick takedown should be counted for initiating the attempt. 

but it shouldn't cancel out someone out striking someone and have such a huge impact scoring wise as it currently does.

The Fighter who scores the TD wins the exchange of someone who “Wall Walks”. Anyone who tells you different is wrong or hasn’t trained

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Can't believe this is still a thing in 2020.

Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.

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Kirk ended thread /

 

Out of curiosity though.,.We talking Holloway v Volkanivski?

As for the OP. It is my belief that a takedown should be scored if it does damage, otherwise it is a transition and should be looked at the same way as a fighter who is able to get back to his feet.

Calhoon -
Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.

If you’re not doing damage you’re not really in control. I’m not talking about last night so dismiss that. I’m speaking in general. I didn’t watch last night. I figured Marty would do what he did. Grind...

Matrix -
Calhoon -
Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.

If you’re not doing damage you’re not really in control. I’m not talking about last night so dismiss that. I’m speaking in general. I didn’t watch last night. I figured Marty would do what he did. Grind...

Not true. You are in complete control if you can control your opponent without doing damage. As I said, in mma it is effective in order to tire your opponent making him work for escapes. On a side note control is the most effective fighting skill for law enforcement to learn. If they can control a suspect without doing any damage then that is the best job they could do. As with many things in the world right now though, it is crazy that the law has apparently been put in place that mount, knee on belly ect, is now illegal for law enforcement to use. They wopuld rather have officers beat resisting suspectas with knight sticks I guess.


 


 

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No they shouldn't be counted and I also believe that defending a takedown should carry more weight in terms of scoring 

Calhoon -
Matrix -
Calhoon -
Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.

If you’re not doing damage you’re not really in control. I’m not talking about last night so dismiss that. I’m speaking in general. I didn’t watch last night. I figured Marty would do what he did. Grind...

Not true. You are in complete control if you can control your opponent without doing damage. As I said, in mma it is effective in order to tire your opponent making him work for escapes. On a side note control is the most effective fighting skill for law enforcement to learn. If they can control a suspect without doing any damage then that is the best job they could do. As with many things in the world right now though, it is crazy that the law has apparently been put in place that mount, knee on belly ect, is now illegal for law enforcement to use. They wopuld rather have officers beat resisting suspectas with knight sticks I guess.


 


 

Lmao turning this into a cop discussion though I agree with you on that. I’ll never agree on the other. Damage should count more in most cases. Let me explain...


If a fighter secures the takedown and does equal damage YES he should score more “points” than the other fighter. If he does not he should either be penalized or it should be a wash. Laying on someone, though requiring skill, is not a point worthy imo. This is mma not wrestling. Let’s push for fights to be finished.

Matrix -
Calhoon -
Matrix -
Calhoon -
Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.

If you’re not doing damage you’re not really in control. I’m not talking about last night so dismiss that. I’m speaking in general. I didn’t watch last night. I figured Marty would do what he did. Grind...

Not true. You are in complete control if you can control your opponent without doing damage. As I said, in mma it is effective in order to tire your opponent making him work for escapes. On a side note control is the most effective fighting skill for law enforcement to learn. If they can control a suspect without doing any damage then that is the best job they could do. As with many things in the world right now though, it is crazy that the law has apparently been put in place that mount, knee on belly ect, is now illegal for law enforcement to use. They wopuld rather have officers beat resisting suspectas with knight sticks I guess.


 


 

Lmao turning this into a cop discussion though I agree with you on that. I’ll never agree on the other. Damage should count more in most cases. Let me explain...


If a fighter secures the takedown and does equal damage YES he should score more “points” than the other fighter. If he does not he should either be penalized or it should be a wash. Laying on someone, though requiring skill, is not a point worthy imo. This is mma not wrestling. Let’s push for fights to be finished.

I hear what you are saying as for damage but again it is not just laying on someone. There are adjustments being made in position from the guy on bottom trying to escape and there are counter adjustm,ents being made by the guy on top controling. Position fighting is a game in itself and it is a very important game as it not only is used to wear the opponent out but also the guy on bottom can open himself up to submissions while trying to escape good control.


 


Granted it is boring for most to watch but I love it and it is an important part of fighting.

Its not supposed to.  As of last year under the unified rules (I'm saying this knowing a few referees who work bellator and UFC events who explained it to me at a rules meeting) that if you get a takedown and do nothing with it then it scores nothing.  Esp if the opponent pops up immediately and you didn't have them in any threat.  Now again that is how its SUPPOSED to be looked at as of last year, doesn't mean that the trash judges we still use will actually follow protocol.

No. But they should count when someone escapes or stands back up!

Calhoon - 
Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.


Great post.


Matrix - 
Calhoon -
Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.

If you’re not doing damage you’re not really in control. I’m not talking about last night so dismiss that. I’m speaking in general. I didn’t watch last night. I figured Marty would do what he did. Grind...


TLDR: Damage isn't necessary to control someone; control is necessary to control someone.

If you have a dominant position on your opponent, you are in control. If they cannot change the position, they are conceding to your control. Pretty simple.

Ministry of Truth -
Matrix - 
Calhoon -
Matrix -

OP is 100% correct. I’d also add if the takedown is secured but he’s taking the majority of the damage that should be scored as well. This laying on people collecting “points” is garbage.

Controlling people, aka laying on people, is a skill. Being able to control someone and dominate position is extremely underated in importance because of it's lack of excitement, but it is one of the most important skills in a real fight. When you dominate the position game you are able to reach positions where you can attack your opponent, which is what everyone wants to see, but you are also able to exhaust your opponent by forcing them to work for escapes. The second use is great for an mma fighter in terms of effectiveness but the majority of fans don't like it. Notice though, Jorge was too tired to do anything in the fifth round.

If you’re not doing damage you’re not really in control. I’m not talking about last night so dismiss that. I’m speaking in general. I didn’t watch last night. I figured Marty would do what he did. Grind...


TLDR: Damage isn't necessary to control someone; control is necessary to control someone.

If you have a dominant position on your opponent, you are in control. If they cannot change the position, they are conceding to your control. Pretty simple.

Ministry of LIES

This has been a long time discussion. Back to the argument of getting a takedown at the end of the round to "steal the round". Its nuts, if a fighter bounces right back up in a second, that takedown was as effective as a slip. Also, if a fighter gets a takedown and lands in potential sub, the bottom fighter attempting sub should get the credit.

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