taekwondo x muay thai kicks

frederic - I've done both. TKD can be point sparring for "touch" (ATA style) or to move the body (Olympic style). Muay Thai is more for damage. TKD is horrible for hands since no punches to the head are allowed. Scoring with a body punch in Olympic style sparring is really difficult (a light touch in other point sparring styles is sufficient). Phone Post 3.0

There are two different federations of TKD, WTF which is the Oylimpic style and ITF which isn't in the Oylimpics. WTF has no punches to the head, but ITF has punches to the head and body protection isn't used. Obviously this changes the dynamics and hands are taught more than in WTF.

As others have said it really depends on what school and teacher you train under. There are loads of Mcdojo's for TKD.

HefX -
firstrodeo -
frederic - The heavy use of forms in TKD means that part of the time you are not training for power but conditioning the mind on holding back. Phone Post 3.0

sorry but how do the use of forms condition the mind to hold back? Do you mean the practice of movements not relative to something else, or someone else conditions the individual to spar a certain way?

learning balance and coordination can be learned in different ways. I don't think forms should be undervalued.
I agree. VU.
As a motor skill, forms are different enough from actual fighting to not cause any interference or negative transfer.

They will not teach you to hold back anymore than shadowboxing will. Phone Post 3.0
Shadowboxing focuses on movement, timing, and stringing together techniques so they begin to feel natural to you; improvisation is more important than century old forms. It strengthens fight basics so the mind is more apt to react quickly.

My years of forms taught me that the exact angle of foot placement, moving in straight lines, and techniques that stop instead of penetrate were the gold standard. Some aspects can help in sport or combat, but the rest differentiate martial arts from fighting and are best put aside. Phone Post 3.0

disbeliever - Is there any question that MT produces more power?

yes. I really would like someone to well, prove it...as best it can. Zeph is correct it depends on the style and school to the quality of practitioner.

I think the objectives of each sport dictate the types of kicks thrown. I can argue muay thai is more static and a broader kick could be more useful in that application and thus practiced. but to say the TKD player doesn't have dexterity in their legs and aren't capable of opening up the hip, turning it over, letting the knee travel past the target to hit with more force is unreasonable IMO.

I don't think originally i was comparing which was best at something but to say that TKD just snaps from the knee with little other movement of the body wasn't an accurate thing to say.

And yes in practice, movements that do not make contact with anything else have a snap to them. I argue, when they do make contact they are more involved as above i discussed.


did kiddie TKD for a couple years...but practicing muay thai for the past decade or so

 

a well versed TKD is nobody you want to fuck with...some TKD guys have given me fits in friendly sparring sessions....it's all about whether and how much you and your opponent are familiar with each other's styles

 

an awesome Muay Thai guy that knows nothing about TKD may very well lose to a TKD guy that happens to be familiar with Muay Thai and vice versa

some of the most dynamic strikers in mma seem to blend tkd and muay thai

frederic - 
HefX -
firstrodeo -
frederic - The heavy use of forms in TKD means that part of the time you are not training for power but conditioning the mind on holding back. Phone Post 3.0

sorry but how do the use of forms condition the mind to hold back? Do you mean the practice of movements not relative to something else, or someone else conditions the individual to spar a certain way?

learning balance and coordination can be learned in different ways. I don't think forms should be undervalued.
I agree. VU.
As a motor skill, forms are different enough from actual fighting to not cause any interference or negative transfer.

They will not teach you to hold back anymore than shadowboxing will. Phone Post 3.0
Shadowboxing focuses on movement, timing, and stringing together techniques so they begin to feel natural to you; improvisation is more important than century old forms. It strengthens fight basics so the mind is more apt to react quickly.

My years of forms taught me that the exact angle of foot placement, moving in straight lines, and techniques that stop instead of penetrate were the gold standard. Some aspects can help in sport or combat, but the rest differentiate martial arts from fighting and are best put aside. Phone Post 3.0

I don't think he meant that one was superior to the other.

your years of forms taught you to move in certain ways to the point you didn't question moving in that way, it was more natural and commonplace. learning to coordinate the whole body when it is not relative to anyone else is important.

nope, i'm not. i've asked but also given my opinion. i was trying to create a good discussion.

john joe - guys, this is the troll first known as Alex Kidd (banned) then came back as Megz (banned) and now using this username. Under his last username he revealed he had created several at once so he probably has a few more in store.

Its such a weird form of trolling; he asks questions about kicking technique and just keeps coming up with more and more questions askign really dumb ones, as if he's a not very bright noob, so people spend ages writing detail for him, but all he is doing is wasting their time.

It is weird as fuck, he must be a really strange guy.

i for got to quote. i'd ask you a question or two but i don't want my cover blown. (that's a joke btw)

john joe - guys, this is the troll first known as Alex Kidd (banned) then came back as Megz (banned) and now using this username. Under his last username he revealed he had created several at once so he probably has a few more in store.

Its such a weird form of trolling; he asks questions about kicking technique and just keeps coming up with more and more questions askign really dumb ones, as if he's a not very bright noob, so people spend ages writing detail for him, but all he is doing is wasting their time.

It is weird as fuck, he must be a really strange guy.

I asked i think Chris bones Jones what his experiences were in TKD because he compared the front snap to the teep. there is a push kick in TKD so why wouldn't he use that in his comparison? i was determining how experienced he was and therefore the quality of his opinion.

john joe - guys, this is the troll first known as Alex Kidd (banned) then came back as Megz (banned) and now using this username. Under his last username he revealed he had created several at once so he probably has a few more in store.

Its such a weird form of trolling; he asks questions about kicking technique and just keeps coming up with more and more questions askign really dumb ones, as if he's a not very bright noob, so people spend ages writing detail for him, but all he is doing is wasting their time.

It is weird as fuck, he must be a really strange guy.

LOL, I was thinking this last night when this thread was posted, but I couldn't remember the troll's name or find the Megz threads.

This thread is just painful. Wanna know the difference between the two kicks? Just show up at a club and open your eyes for 30 seconds.

Disclaimer: background in both MT and TKD.

You don't know what hard kicks feel like, before you've held pads for a high level muay thai fighter. Phone Post 3.0

Dougie - 






Although this isn't exact the TKD had the fastest and hardest kick. The Muay Thai guys had the second fastest but not as hard at the Capoeira guy. Over all the Capoeira guy had the best ratio of speed to power.

However it is interesting to note that each fighter used a slightly different part of the leg/foot to strike with.

HefX - An old schoolmate of mine is a 7th degree BB instructor in Tang Soo Do, which is a traditional style of Korean Karate similar to TKD. He kicks like a mule. VERY heavy legs.

Also, unless there are different competition rulesets that I'm not aware of, TKD rules state a kick must be landed with "trembling shock" for it to score a point. Meaning, it must observably jar or shake the opponents body. A tap or touch doesn't count. Phone Post 3.0

While that may be true HefX, it is similar to how judo rules have evolved over the years.

The top score in judo, the "KO" throw, is still the "ippon."

By the rules of judo, and these rules have not changed in wording over time, an ippon throw must show "force, control, and have the opponent land mostly on their back."

Now, back in my original sensei's day (he competed in the 60's and 70's), that basically meant you had to fucking plow the guy while remaining standing. If the judges couldn't feel the impact reverberate through their feet, you weren't getting ippon. And "mostly on the back" meant spine had to hit.

Later, sacrafice techniques started to gain more ippons.Then the "drop" techniques, or techniques that had the thrower going down with the opponent.

Then the definition of "mostly on the back" changed, evolving to the point now where if you draw a line through the body, dividing front to back, anything to the rear of the body is termed "the back." Basically, if you landed mostly on your lat muscles, that became "the back."

Even more, the definition of "force and control" changed further, lessening the amount of force needed. I lost at least four matches where I was "thrown" by someone doing a drop ippon seio nage, where I resisted the initial contact, rolled through, and secured a rear naked choke. However, since I was "thrown," the choke didn't matter, and I lost.

The main point of this long rant is that while the terminology may perhaps say one thing, the reality of the situation in a sporting aspect may in fact be totally different.

TKD has changed a lot. The name of the game in modern sport TKD is speed, NOT power. You don't need to worry about knocking someone out or hurting them in Olympic TKD.  Unlike kickboxing or Muay Thai, the goal in TKD is not to cause damage, but simply to score. --Not that high level TKD guys can't kick hard. But it's sort of similar to the difference between amateur boxing and pro boxing; one is more about scoring, one is more about inflicting damage and scoring.

 

 

what questions were dumb?

DanTheCan - Honestly op is a teen trying to figure out fighting in his basement Phone Post 3.0

are we too cool for forms dan?

Threads are not good natured IMO. The guy is pathetic, all he does is act like a complete beginner and try to engage in pseudo-relevant discussion, however the questions he asks are very subtle trolls that he tries to keep going for as long as possible.

As John Joe said, he is a really weird guy.

Furthermore, I called him out on his trolling a while ago, I messaged him directly and he PM'ed with this:

Megz to Dbulletproof Oct 21 (15 days ago)

"Shut up you whiny victim"

Now, he called me a whiny victim as I made this thread:

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/thread/2376656/Why-Does-Cancer-Suck/?&page=1

My friend died last week actually, and I was using the OG to vent at the shittiness of the situation. All of the people on the thread were awesome, and they really made me feel better, however as you can see, only a prick like the OP would use that in the way he did.

I think that this is evidence enough, that the guy is a scumbag.

OP, if you really want to learn how to kick, go to a gym and stop being a troll.

Alternatively, as I know you are in England, how about next time I'm over there, I teach you how to kick one to one?

I would be very happy to answer all of your questions in person.

Ghost of Retard, I saw TROY DORSEY fight in Dallas as a teenager He came up with Ray McCalllum, Billy Jackson, Demetrius Greek Havanas and Tim Kirby, all great TKD kickers on the Texas Karate Circuit back in early 1980's.

I am not this person!! I'm not even in England. I'm blown away by the reaction of this thread. yes to a degree i asked perhaps more obvious questions but to make a point, and no, that is not an admission of guilt of trolling.

I honestly was trying to create discussion not mock. to me some people's arguments were "MT hits like a baseball bat and that's that." to me that isn't an argument. i wanted someone to elaborate on the differences.

why do you know this troll is from england? and if so there must be a way to prove i'm not the same person. I did NOT send you that shitty message i would NOT do that. I am sorry about your friend.

apart from my questions i made many statements/arguments as well.

Dbulletproof - Threads are not good natured IMO. The guy is pathetic, all he does is act like a complete beginner and try to engage in pseudo-relevant discussion, however the questions he asks are very subtle trolls that he tries to keep going for as long as possible.

As John Joe said, he is a really weird guy.

Furthermore, I called him out on his trolling a while ago, I messaged him directly and he PM'ed with this:

Megz to Dbulletproof Oct 21 (15 days ago)

"Shut up you whiny victim"

Now, he called me a whiny victim as I made this thread:

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/thread/2376656/Why-Does-Cancer-Suck/?&page=1

My friend died last week actually, and I was using the OG to vent at the shittiness of the situation. All of the people on the thread were awesome, and they really made me feel better, however as you can see, only a prick like the OP would use that in the way he did.

I think that this is evidence enough, that the guy is a scumbag.

OP, if you really want to learn how to kick, go to a gym and stop being a troll.

Alternatively, as I know you are in England, how about next time I'm over there, I teach you how to kick one to one?

I would be very happy to answer all of your questions in person.

forgot to quote. when i asked what a point fighter was i meant what does that label really mean...that's it. yes i know the difference. or asking am i wrong? i think it just invites argument, but not a troll. i can't explain any better.

I have another post about kicking i'd like to think that it isn't trolling. it was about the dip before a high kick. my last post i think i did ask another question that someone had answered. but still not intentional.