Ugh. Why is this so difficult?
I've been prepping two of my friends for MMA fights, so we've been working takedowns against a guy throwing punches wearing boxing gloves.
Now, normally I don't have any problems taking a fall, I've done judo and wrestling for years, but when I wear the boxing gloves, I find my arms are usually trapped and I can't get them free, and just because of the stance, I'm so far upright that I find it's a long way to the ground.
I have a better respect for Cung Lee TKO-ing people from throws now. It's so hard to take a fall wearing the gloves.
Judo/Jujitsu/Sambo/Hapkido break falls all involve "slapping out", this is in theory, as a good judo person with competitive experience can tell you, in SS, we use the Chinese style break fall, which comes from Chinese wrestling, we don't slap out, we curl into a ball, learning this method will help tremendously
Lkfmdc: I can see how that's handy, but does that even help when people land on you?
Hmm, anything I can pick up or look at to learn this?
I usually demonstrate how the curled up, fetal like position not only protects you against the fall, but the person falling on top of you, by having someone STAND ON ME. Usually one foot on my thigh, another on my arm...
The Combat Shuai Jiao (ie combat Chinese wrestling) people have put out some tapes... I will find out which one has the break fall info and post the info here when I get it
In the type of break fall lkfmdc is talking about, take your hands and put them up around your head like you are covering up, with your fists behind your head and your wrists/foerarms on your cheeks/ears.Tuck your chin and sort of curl up fetal, careful not to let your knees rest one on top of the other, but stagger them a bit so they dont bonce off of each other. Then take the fall on your side. I'll look for some pics/footage of this type of break fall.
Okay, thanks for the response..
Kai Tremeche: You can always train in my class and learn from someone that has done it.
BBB: Cool, that's not a bad idea.
in SS, we use the Chinese style break fall,I don't. never liked it and never will.I breakfall like a judoka and have no problems.Don't become obsessed with the "slap", focus on keeping the chin tucked and not putting your arms out. the fall will come soon enough! :-D use you hands when you can.
Bull: But have you done falls while wearing the boxing gloves, where you have your arms competely trapped and your upper body isolated?
Kai, I've been doing san shou since '96. spent the last 3+ years doing judo & bjj but recently began training san shou & mma again.
tuck your chin and "bump" safely. there are many times in judo where you are not able to do an ideal breakfall. but w/ years of practice and randori your body knows how to take the fall.
BIC: Well I'll just have to adjust I guess, I've been taking falls and logging frequent flyer miles forever, but man...
Kai, maybe David's methods might work for you.*shrug* Hope you're training on good judo mats.
everyone is entitled to an opinioneveryone can practice for themselves as they see fitstill, MOST SS people don't Judo style break fall....
basics of the Shuai Chiao breakfall:
"focus on keeping the chin tucked and not putting your arms out. the fall will come soon enough!"
My .02 guys...
Fall either way you want because you are in a ring...not on the street. Just tuck that chin in either case! Having done San Shou and Combat Sambo for many years, I can speak to slapping out vs. not slapping out during a fall. I advocate practicing falling without slapping IF you plan on really training for self-defense and the possibility of being thrown on concrete. I train people to slap out first so they get over the fear of falling. Then we move to falling without slapping out.
In sport with nice mats, do what works best for you. Some of my guys love slapping out with gloves on because it hurts their hands less...lol. Regarding having your arms trapped, a good thrower will try to trap your arms regardless of whether you have gloves on so practice both ways.
"take your hands and put them up around your head like you are covering up, with your fists behind your head and your wrists/foerarms on your cheeks/ears.Tuck your chin and sort of curl up fetal, careful not to let your knees rest one on top of the other, but stagger them a bit so they dont bonce off of each other."
Well said...if the knees are together on a good throw, you won't have any more knees...lol. Definitely keep them apart.
No offense to any San Shou guys out there...but, it seems to me watching amateur and even some pro San Shou videos as well as from my own experience with San Shou, that falling is not a priority in training. Generally, I come away with a feeling that how to fall is almost an after-thought...sloppy looking. This was not so clear to me until I studied Combat Sambo where it is fall, fall, fall, roll, roll, roll, all the time.
Maybe some of the Judo/San Shou hybrid guys out there can speak to their experiences.
when I started out, I was doing Hapkido, we did the whole first part of class rolling, jumping, doing break falls. I did some Japanese Jujitsu and it was all the same. Then I did Shuai Jiao, and the method was different, but doing a lot of rolling and break falls was still a big part of the class
IN my san shou training, as SamboSteve knows, I have gone back and forth. Often, we did very little break fall training. But it isn't just that the system has a lot of stuff to do and we get side tracked, I also have issues with all the rolls and break falls scaring away beginners. I know I"m not alone in this, I have Judo friends who have similar issues, much more complicated for them because they do Judo!!
It is one of those issues I still (sorry for the pun) wrestle with ....
lkfmdc,
I hear ya about the possibility of scaring beginners. It definitely can be intimidating to see a class where people are being slammed but, they should also be able to see that people are not getting hurt while being thrown...because they are falling properly. It is more intimidating to see a student or competitor get a dislocated elbow, shoulder, or fractured arm, or worse.
I have seen too many injuries, some very serious, because of improper falling and lack of confidence in falling. You and I have seen one very recently. Like the kid at the sambo tourny last February. He failed to roll with a simple sacrifice throw, planted his arm, and now he's looking at years of rehab and surgery...torn elbow joint capsule, fractured radial and ulnar heads, and plenty of torn soft tissue. All at the age of fifteen.
In my mind, if you can't fall, you have no business practicing throws. It's just plain dangerous. The thrower can't trust his uki and the uki can't have faith in his falling to allow his partner to practice the throw without worry. Nobody benefits. Getting over the fear of falling is integral to practicing throwing and protecting yourself. If a student can't get over that, they should not be training throws at all. So, for me, it is not scaring away people, it is a weeding out process.
Great post SamboSteve! I actually had some very bad experiences in judo during randori which emotionally scarred me. I'm still a white belt in Judo (haven't practised for many years) but my breakfalls are fairly good from years of martial arts.
I was just thinking recently that if I were ever to open up a judo school, my first priority would be drilling beginners in breakfalls until they could do it with ease. Then I would have them thrown (lightly)many, many times in order to remove any fear of being thrown and to perfect their technique for the real thing.
Only after they can do this proficiently would I have them starting to try learning throws and eventually randori. In my case, I've been thrown into randori from day one at all the judo clubs I've gone to and it's ended in disaster...
I personally am interested in competing in san shou in the future if possible, so this thread is great for me!
Lautaro