it was 07 but 160...
Ausgepicht -jkd4200 - When you talk about BJ you look at ALL the people he has beat in different wieght classes. thats why he is considered P4P the best. and that is how he earned title fights. yes, bjj is different than mma, but he proved to be one of the best in the world at bjj, and that is why he is so respected, mma guys know how hard that would be to go and win the worlds.Name "all the people" he has beat in different weight classes and then name the one's he has lost to in different weight classes and then total them. Do us that favor, OK?
You are bloated on POI and Kool-Aid if you think BJ is P4P. Stop bringing up his accomplishments in BJJ as if they are accomplishments in MMA.
Snapshot of BJ Penn's career thus far:
He is 3 of 7 at higher weight classes. His 4 losses are from GSP 2x, Hughes, and Machida. His 3 wins include Hughes, Renzo Gracie, and Rodrigo Gracie.
He is 10 of 12 at his normal weight class. 1 loss from Pulver, and 1 draw with Uno. His 10 wins include Pulver, Sherk, Stevenson, Gomi, Uno, Ludvig, Serra, Thomas, Gilbert, and Creighton.
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From what I see, BJ has been dominant at 155. His only real loss at 155 was from a close fight with Pulver early in his career (I think this was his 4th fight?)
At 170 and above, he is less than 50%. However, he beat Hughes, and had competitive fights with GSP (first fight) and Machida. He has only been stopped at 170: first time against #1 or 2 ranked Hughes (and looked good in his loss absent the rib injury), and second time against #1 ranked GSP.
GSP's record above 170 is 0-0. Anderson Silva's record above 170 is 1-0 (against Irvin). Fedor would probably be 2-0 or 3-0 if there was a super-heavyweight class.
In light of the foregoing, it is evident that one of BJ's greatest accomplishments is his willingness to risk his record against the #1-#2 fighters at a higher weight class. I think that is a quality that most top P4P candidates do not have.
Dominance at your weight class should not be dispositive of P4P dominance. But having competitive fights and wins at higher weight classes is probative.
Don't discount BJ's credentials because you don't like him.
Hardcharger -JDolo -caliphornia - BJ may be disrespectful when he hypes fights, but his following is not disrespectful.
if you want to talk about disrespectful fans, then point the finger at GSP fans. the way they have treated BJ fans recently shows the pathetic side of the MMA community. you can disrespect BJ but don't disrespect his fans.
coming from you this is the biggest pile of shit post imaginable on this subject.
LMFAO at the post. Leave BJ's nuthuggers alone! It hurts their feelings when their delusions are thrown in their face.
caliphornia's point has been clarified.
kipling200 -
He is 3 of 7 at higher weight classes. His 4 losses are from GSP 2x, Hughes, and Machida. His 3 wins include Hughes, Renzo Gracie, and Rodrigo Gracie.
Nice post... let's also pay attention to the people he fought at higher weight classes...
2 of them are the greatest welterweights (future hall of famers) in the history of the sport (Hughes and GSP)...
In his loss to both GSP (first fight) and Hughes - BJ dominated early (won 1st round against GSP and won first 2 rounds against Hughes)... only to fall in later rounds due to gassing (Not an excuse... a loss is a loss). GSP also said that many times that it was his most difficult fight to date.
Lyoto - when it is all said and done may become the #1 Light Heavyweight... is arguably the best at that division... has never lost a fight... has never even lost a round in the UFC.
Renzo and Rodrigo are studs...
This latest fight with GSP is the only fight where BJ has ever been dominated through the entire fight.
I give GSP credit for the win (grease or no grease)... but to argue against BJ as a fighter is ridiculous IMO.
AK-BJJ - Just in case he does walk away from the sport... look at what he's been able to accomplish. BB in less than 4 years, then winning the world BJJ championships at BB, shocks the world and becomes world WW champion, becomes world LW champion and only 2nd guy in UFC history to have held titles in 2 different weight classes.
I could live with that resume... I won gold at the AZ state BJJ championships and am a blue belt and I am proud of just that! The people disrespecting him are out of control and really need to see how much he's done.
BB in 4 years has nothing to do with MMA Accomplishments
Didn't work through the WW Division had immediate title shot given to him and went 1-1 with the champ, 1-3 as a WW never defended his title and never had a winnig record over any opponent at that weight class
Took multiple tries to win the LW Division before finally winning the interim belt. You can say he did as much to fuck up the LW division back when it first came in.
How did BJ Penn get so many title shots is beyond me. Lyoto Machida is 14-0, Thiago Silva is 13-1, GSP is 20-2 Jon Fitch is 9-1 in the UFC. Anderson Silva is 23-4 and 8-0 in the UFC. Fedor is 29-0.
BJ Penn is 13-5-1. In the UFC he is 9-4-1 hardly comparable to the guys above. As a UFC WW he is only 1-3 as a UFC LW he is 8-1-1. Only there has he looked like a champion and he drew his first title shot, before winning a second one at lightweight years later.
How does one get 4 title shots with a 9-4-1 record? Only twice has he made good on those attempts and routinely showed up either not in shape or with a bad gameplan.
How and why does he get more respect then someone like Lyoto Machida who has yet to lose and yet to be given a shot? or someone like Fitch who's only loss was a 5 round decision to GSP who has beaten Penn twice, once via rape.
He has accomplished lots but I don't think he belongs on any P4P and his record is not indicative of his talents. You can't give some accolades for what could have been.
kipling200 -Ausgepicht -jkd4200 - When you talk about BJ you look at ALL the people he has beat in different wieght classes. thats why he is considered P4P the best. and that is how he earned title fights. yes, bjj is different than mma, but he proved to be one of the best in the world at bjj, and that is why he is so respected, mma guys know how hard that would be to go and win the worlds.Name "all the people" he has beat in different weight classes and then name the one's he has lost to in different weight classes and then total them. Do us that favor, OK?
You are bloated on POI and Kool-Aid if you think BJ is P4P. Stop bringing up his accomplishments in BJJ as if they are accomplishments in MMA.
Snapshot of BJ Penn's career thus far:
He is 3 of 7 at higher weight classes. His 4 losses are from GSP 2x, Hughes, and Machida. His 3 wins include Hughes, Renzo Gracie, and Rodrigo Gracie.
He is 10 of 12 at his normal weight class. 1 loss from Pulver, and 1 draw with Uno. His 10 wins include Pulver, Sherk, Stevenson, Gomi, Uno, Ludvig, Serra, Thomas, Gilbert, and Creighton.
--
From what I see, BJ has been dominant at 155. His only real loss at 155 was from a close fight with Pulver early in his career (I think this was his 4th fight?)
At 170 and above, he is less than 50%. However, he beat Hughes, and had competitive fights with GSP (first fight) and Machida. He has only been stopped at 170: first time against #1 or 2 ranked Hughes (and looked good in his loss absent the rib injury), and second time against #1 ranked GSP.
GSP's record above 170 is 0-0. Anderson Silva's record above 170 is 1-0 (against Irvin). Fedor would probably be 2-0 or 3-0 if there was a super-heavyweight class.
In light of the foregoing, it is evident that one of BJ's greatest accomplishments is his willingness to risk his record against the #1-#2 fighters at a higher weight class. I think that is a quality that most top P4P candidates do not have.
Dominance at your weight class should not be dispositive of P4P dominance. But having competitive fights and wins at higher weight classes is probative.
Don't discount BJ's credentials because you don't like him.
You can make arguments against that even. He is 1-1 against Pulver, a fighter who now fights in a weight class below him and 1-0-1 against Uno. He is 1-1 for LW Title shots. He has been good but of his 4 title shots only once did he have to work through his division to get there, depriving other more deserving fighters of their fights in the process.
This time round, the Penn haters were WAAAY worse than BJ nuthuggers which was to be expected with some of BJ's sensationalistic pre-fight comments.
It actually tells you about how strong the support base for GSP is.
To the death....
Dean of Lean -
You can make arguments against that even. He is 1-1 against Pulver, a fighter who now fights in a weight class below him and 1-0-1 against Uno. He is 1-1 for LW Title shots. He has been good but of his 4 title shots only once did he have to work through his division to get there, depriving other more deserving fighters of their fights in the process.
Good points. True, he is 1-1 against Pulver, but for comparison, GSP is 1-1 against Serra, who naturally fights in a weight class below him as well. I wouldn't hold that against GSP's run for P4P either, even though the size difference between GSP and Serra seems more substantial than Penn and Pulver.
As for the earned title shots (or lack thereof), you're right, although beating Stevenson more than justified, in my mind, a shot at Sherk. Look at Stevenson's accomplishments before the BJ fight -- he was on a roll in that division with wins over Pelligrino, Mishima, and Yves. In my mind, Stevenson definitely was the #1 contender to Sherk at the time.
Before the Sherk fight was signed, Kenflo was coming off a loss with Sherk, but had done pretty well beating Mishima, Din Thomas, and Alvin Robinson. It would make sense, in my mind, to give BJ the title shot, since he had just defeated the Stevenson, the #1 contender. A rematch between Kenflo and Sherk wouldn't seem warranted at that point.
Thus, I feel that BJ earned his 2 title shots at 155. Also, keep in mind that BJ has an impressive pedigree at 155, which definitely boosted him in the ranks upon his return to the division. The UFC vacated the 155 division after the BJ-Uno draw, right? So it would make sense that upon his return, he would be a top contender. In other words, why would he have to beat Mishima in order to get a shot at Stevenson?
You are right about his title shots at 170, however. But I will say this -- before first Hughes fight, Hughes had just taken down Sherk, Trigg, Castillo, Newton, Sakurai, etc. I don't remember there being a definitive #1 contender at that time, not even GSP. I don't think anyone was complaining that BJ should get the shot at the time. I think it was mostly because everyone thought BJ would lose and lose badly. In fact, most people at the time wouldn't frame it as giving BJ a gift or a case of favoritism. But he won, and now people use the fact that he moved up in weight to fight the most dominant 170er at the time against him.
And then, BJ left the UFC scene. Hughes continued to be dominant, and when BJ returned, it would make sense that the former champ fight Hughes. But GSP started making huge splashes in the division at the time, so it made sense for them to fight for the #1 contender spot. As luck would have it, GSP was injured before the Hughes fight, so BJ stepped in. Again, I don't think it was unearned -- BJ lost a close, split decision with the #1 contender.
Now for his last title shot, against GSP. Definitely unearned -- guys like Alves would've made more sense obviously. But you now what? The UFC wanted a historic champion vs. champion fight. It doesn't happen everyday, and BJ stepped up to do it. Some would say BJ was in a win-win situation. But if so, why didn't GSP challenge Silva after he beat Fitch? Or why doesn't Silva challenge Rampage, etc.? In the end, BJ stepped up, and in the process, gave the the Underground a lot to talk about.
It's funny that BJ-haters use these facts against him. He wasn't some unproven 155'er who was best friends with Dana and given title shot after title shot. Like him or hate him, his career in the UFC thus far stands out and should be commended.
"In light of the foregoing, it is evident that one of BJ's greatest accomplishments is his willingness to risk his record against the #1-#2 fighters at a higher weight class. I think that is a quality that most top P4P candidates do not have."
I imagine plenty of fighters would be willing to "risk their records" by fighting up in weight if they knew that win or lose, they would continue to get one title shot after another in whatever division they chose to fight in, continue to be in the main event of every card they were on, and everyone would still insist they were p4p greats. Not much of a "risk" there, especially when compared to the reward of "omg he beat a guy who is 15lb heavier".
kipling200 -Dean of Lean -
You can make arguments against that even. He is 1-1 against Pulver, a fighter who now fights in a weight class below him and 1-0-1 against Uno. He is 1-1 for LW Title shots. He has been good but of his 4 title shots only once did he have to work through his division to get there, depriving other more deserving fighters of their fights in the process.
Good points. True, he is 1-1 against Pulver, but for comparison, GSP is 1-1 against Serra, who naturally fights in a weight class below him as well. I wouldn't hold that against GSP's run for P4P either, even though the size difference between GSP and Serra seems more substantial than Penn and Pulver.
As for the earned title shots (or lack thereof), you're right, although beating Stevenson more than justified, in my mind, a shot at Sherk. Look at Stevenson's accomplishments before the BJ fight -- he was on a roll in that division with wins over Pelligrino, Mishima, and Yves. In my mind, Stevenson definitely was the #1 contender to Sherk at the time.
Before the Sherk fight was signed, Kenflo was coming off a loss with Sherk, but had done pretty well beating Mishima, Din Thomas, and Alvin Robinson. It would make sense, in my mind, to give BJ the title shot, since he had just defeated the Stevenson, the #1 contender. A rematch between Kenflo and Sherk wouldn't seem warranted at that point.
Thus, I feel that BJ earned his 2 title shots at 155. Also, keep in mind that BJ has an impressive pedigree at 155, which definitely boosted him in the ranks upon his return to the division. The UFC vacated the 155 division after the BJ-Uno draw, right? So it would make sense that upon his return, he would be a top contender. In other words, why would he have to beat Mishima in order to get a shot at Stevenson?
You are right about his title shots at 170, however. But I will say this -- before first Hughes fight, Hughes had just taken down Sherk, Trigg, Castillo, Newton, Sakurai, etc. I don't remember there being a definitive #1 contender at that time, not even GSP. I don't think anyone was complaining that BJ should get the shot at the time. I think it was mostly because everyone thought BJ would lose and lose badly. In fact, most people at the time wouldn't frame it as giving BJ a gift or a case of favoritism. But he won, and now people use the fact that he moved up in weight to fight the most dominant 170er at the time against him.
And then, BJ left the UFC scene. Hughes continued to be dominant, and when BJ returned, it would make sense that the former champ fight Hughes. But GSP started making huge splashes in the division at the time, so it made sense for them to fight for the #1 contender spot. As luck would have it, GSP was injured before the Hughes fight, so BJ stepped in. Again, I don't think it was unearned -- BJ lost a close, split decision with the #1 contender.
Now for his last title shot, against GSP. Definitely unearned -- guys like Alves would've made more sense obviously. But you now what? The UFC wanted a historic champion vs. champion fight. It doesn't happen everyday, and BJ stepped up to do it. Some would say BJ was in a win-win situation. But if so, why didn't GSP challenge Silva after he beat Fitch? Or why doesn't Silva challenge Rampage, etc.? In the end, BJ stepped up, and in the process, gave the the Underground a lot to talk about.
It's funny that BJ-haters use these facts against him. He wasn't some unproven 155'er who was best friends with Dana and given title shot after title shot. Like him or hate him, his career in the UFC thus far stands out and should be commended.
You make valid points There I will concede but You can't just walk in and out either and expect immediate title shots ;) tho Your pt about the 2nd 170 shot makes sense. He still didn't deserve the first WW shot and I dunno if he deserved this one over Alves, Which I forgot to include so really he's had 5 Title shots. 9 wins doesn't justify 5 shots.
orcus - "In light of the foregoing, it is evident that one of BJ's greatest accomplishments is his willingness to risk his record against the #1-#2 fighters at a higher weight class. I think that is a quality that most top P4P candidates do not have."
I imagine plenty of fighters would be willing to "risk their records" by fighting up in weight if they knew that win or lose, they would continue to get one title shot after another in whatever division they chose to fight in, continue to be in the main event of every card they were on, and everyone would still insist they were p4p greats. Not much of a "risk" there, especially when compared to the reward of "omg he beat a guy who is 15lb heavier".
BJ risked getting beat down in front of one of the most-hyped UFC events to date. And that is exactly what happened!
I think you're simplifying the risk-reward scenario a bit. It's one thing for a mid-level 155'er to take that risk. But for the #1 155'er in the UFC, who is in the contention for P4P, to risk being decimated in one of the biggest shows in UFC history ... that's another thing.
If the reward was that great, I'm pretty sure GSP would be petitioning the UFC for a shot at Silva right now. Champions don't like to lose.
Hopefully BJ will take up where he left off at LW with Kenny.
Great talent just needs to cross train more and bring in a Strength and Conditioning Professional from the States not Hawaii and do a real 9 - 10 week training camp.
Bring in some top sparring partners as well like Koscheck or AJ.
Good Posts Kipling200; you make some valid points.
I think a lot of BJ detractors let there dislike/hate of BJ and his fans cloud their thinking when making their Posts.
JDolo - if his following wasn't so disrespectful as well as himself he would be more respected. all ill respect has been brought upon him.
Is this old English or something?
"If the reward was that great, I'm pretty sure GSP would be petitioning the UFC for a shot at Silva right now. Champions don't like to lose."
Didn't GSP say he would be thrilled to fight Anderson?
More importantly, BJ didn't think there was any chance of being decimated by GSP. On the UG, even most of those picking GSP thought he would win by lay and pray decision.
orcus - "If the reward was that great, I'm pretty sure GSP would be petitioning the UFC for a shot at Silva right now. Champions don't like to lose."
Didn't GSP say he would be thrilled to fight Anderson?
More importantly, BJ didn't think there was any chance of being decimated by GSP. On the UG, even most of those picking GSP thought he would win by lay and pray decision.
I think it probably would have ended up that way without the greasing... either way GSP wins this in a pretty dominant fashion...
^^^im a bj fan , and a gsp fan. There both amazing athletes but i don't know about the greasing thing. bj was locking those legs in half guard with everything he haid, and gsp was passing way easier than i expected grese or not gsp passed his guard numerous times..
orcus - "If the reward was that great, I'm pretty sure GSP would be petitioning the UFC for a shot at Silva right now. Champions don't like to lose."
Didn't GSP say he would be thrilled to fight Anderson?
More importantly, BJ didn't think there was any chance of being decimated by GSP. On the UG, even most of those picking GSP thought he would win by lay and pray decision.
True, but so far he hasn't pushed hard enough to make it happen.
Also, who knows what BJ's thoughts were going into the fight. Everyone knows you can lose on any given day -- I doubt he was thinking that GSP would be an easy fight.
Point is, BJ is the only one who pushes to get out of his comfort zone and to test himself at the highest level. Until I see the majority of fighters do the same, I would say BJ is unique in that regard.
Damn, i thought this about a study of getting blow jobs...damn