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The following is from Sanford Strong's website:
Rhonda's Story
December of 1980. I was working at Bob's Big Boy on La Cienega Boulevard in Los Angeles. It was around closing time, 3 A.M. The first thing I noticed was their dress—casual, very nice. Suddenly, they both pushed into the area behind the counter and forced the manager to stay there.
Then I noticed the gun. I was filling salt shakers at the front of the restaurant. "This is a jack," the one with the gun said. Later I learned that means a "holdup." It wasn't difficult to figure out with a gun pointed at me.
They forced all nine of us, seven staff and two customers, through the kitchen into the back of the restaurant. "Please don't hurt us," we pleaded over and over.
They were already getting violent with the cashier, hitting him a lot with the butt of the gun. I think they singled him out because he didn't understand the gunman's slang. We had to drag him with us; they hit him so hard and so often he couldn't move.
Then they herded us all into the walk-in freezer and robbed our jewelry, our tips, whatever we had. One kept saying, "We're not going to kill you. We're not going to kill you. Just do what we say." All of us were praying. We all had our own backgrounds and religions, but we all prayed out loud, together. Ditas the waitress was doing her rosary. She had the beads clutched in her hands when she was killed.
They ordered us to get to the back of the freezer. I was shaking so badly, not from the cold, but from terror. They said, "Lie down on the floor." The cashier was already unconscious on the floor, or maybe dead from the beating. We couldn't tell and that only contributed to our panic.
We were lying on each other in the freezer. To put everything into a time perspective, only about a minute and a half, maybe two, had passed since they entered the restaurant. They sure were organized when they barged in, getting behind the registers, herding all of us into the freezer. But then they acted like they didn't know what to do next, now with us in the freezer. They stepped out and we prayed again. I've always believed at first they didn't have any intention of shooting us—that it was just a last-minute decision.
The freezer door opened. I heard the first gunshot. For an instant I remember thinking, "This isn't possible." Then I heard a moan. I remember reasoning, "They have everything, we can't do anything else for them. Why would we be shot?" So the first shot—I couldn't believe it, shooting us? No!
My hair was in an Afro and I felt the bullets pass through my hair. The first volley of shots didn't last long, probably just seconds. They left the freezer. The door shuts automatically. I remember just being frozen stiff. Nobody moved, no one talked. We were paralyzed with fear. Everything seemed to be happening in slow motion—that slow-motion feeling was weird.
They came back in. Ditas, already shot and bleeding, began to stand and said, "Oh, no, please. We won't say anything. Just leave us. Just leave. We won't say anything." They shot her again. Her body actually flew back against me. I still have nightmares of her body against me, her blood pouring onto me. But her body was my protection. Then our chef was shot in the neck, in front of my head. I remember his body vibrating against me when he died. Others were being shot too, but they were a few inches away from me.
I have purposely not thought about this for so long—the screams, broken only with moans, dying moans. Ditas was still against me. I could feel and hear her breathing. Then she moaned a little and died quietly. I thought, "She just had a baby. Who will care for her baby?" I remember hearing the drip drip of the blood trickling down the drain in the middle of the floor. I was breathing so hard, but trying not to breathe. I was unable to control my breathing or urine. I let my body go. At that point I faked death. It was odd; in my mind, my funeral passed in front of me.
Just as they left, one of them said, "Wait! She's not dead." I knew it was me they were talking about. "Let's get out of here now," the other one yelled. The door slammed.
We listened—didn't hear anything outside. Then the manager said, "Rhonda, you're alive?" "Yes!" "Rhonda, am I shot?" I moved enough so I could see him—my God, his eye was completely blown out. He kept asking, "Am I shot? Am I shot?" I told him, "No, you're not shot." I don't know why I said that, I just did. I pushed Evelyn's body off me and gave myself a once-over. The manager said, "We've got to help these people." He still didn't realize he was shot and that his eye was missing. Four people were dead. Four more wounded. I was the only one not shot.
Bryan (Rhonda's husband)
It took Rhonda years to work through this. Obviously, people are forever changed after something like that. For a long time she felt uncomfortable going into any kind of restaurant, grocery store, market, especially one with lots of people in it. Even now, we kind of case the place, especially convenience stores, gas stations. We kind of check it out before we get out of the car. We even look for escape routes, just like I've learned cops do. At first I felt a little paranoid; later it just became a habit. Rhonda's experience has definitely made us stronger.
I know a few cops and I've heard them say that it becomes an unconscious habit, planning to survive something. We never pull up and say, "Just in case this place gets robbed, you go ahead and take off." We never discuss that stuff now. We discussed it enough in the beginning that now it's just an unspoken thing between us.
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Sam Pie,
Good post. I have a question. You would agree that in certain cases, resisting will get you killed or seriously injured, where not resisting will let you off with your life and limbs intact? How should you decide if you are in such a situation, where Not resisting will actually be better for you? When should you not resist?
-jk
This thread was worth the reading for the referance to a persons "sphere of death" alone..LOL!!
Jump Kick...a man has to know what he can do and his limitations. Everyone will have to decide for themselves, that's why it's a good idea to go over the scenarios in your mind first.
There are lots of different ways you can resist. Example: If you are confronted by a man with a gun who asks for your wallet. You can resist by dropping your keys and wallet and running. Don't wait around to see what else he has in mind for you. His next order might be to get into the trunk of your car or get on your knees and face away from your attacker. If he's just a robber he probably won't shoot you for running. If he shoots, he was probably going to shoot you anyway, at least you have a running chance. If he tries to move you to Crime Scene #2, it's time to resist because it will only get way worse. I would never let anyone tie me up or I would never give up my weapons. Resisting can also be training your family how to react in case of an emergency. Criminals will go for adults first, kids have the best chance of escaping and getting help.
"Good post. I have a question. You would agree that in certain cases, resisting will get you killed or seriously injured, where not resisting will let you off with your life and limbs intact? How should you decide if you are in such a situation, where Not resisting will actually be better for you? When should you not resist?
-jk"
you won't know. a professional poker player doesn't KNOW what card will pop up next....but he plays the odds.
like gary said, if they want to take you to "crime scene #2" this is a pretty good indicator that something really bad is going to happen.
if it's a simple mugging, and they're just asking for posessions, not too dangerous to drop your your wallet (a degree of cooperation) and run. if they just wanted your money, they'll stop to grab your wallet and run.
my police departments policy in hostage situations.... if they say they'll kill the hostages if you don't drop your weapon....still don't suurender your weapon. your trying reduce the number of hostages, not increase them. or give them more weapons.
a couple of set ups you might want to be prepared for...
man asks you what time it is. common tactic to make you look away while a person is in combat distance. this should set off warning bells. don't look down at your watch, bring your watch up so you can look at him accross your watch. and give yourself a half step more of distance to react. but maybe stay in range to jam a weapon draw. just him sensing that u are prepared may make him walk away and seek easier prey.
a well dressed man walks up to you holding a newspaper. the newspaper is hiding a gun, you don't see it till it's in your face. and he uses the newspaper to hide the gun from everyone else around you. people have been robbed in broad daylight, surrounded by crowds like this.
you're in an argument outside a bar. the guy has his thin jacket draped across his arm. he shoves you. you feel something cold and realize you're bleeding. he had his knife wrapped in his jacket, and you didn't see it. he's coming at you again, this time to finish you. (this one is something i learned from the irish in boston, it's a nasty move).
you're walking on a crowded sidewalk, people all around you. a group of teenagers is walking the same way. they come up behind you. soon there are some of them on every side of you, surrounding you. then one of them sticks a knife or gun in your back, and the guys on your sides grab your arms and rifle your pockets.
Very good info from GannonTheCannon.
The last time I went to Texas I stopped at a rest stop to piss and I got mugged. He came out of nowhere and got into grabbing range before I realized he was there. I wonder how it would of ended up if I would of been paying attention. But to look at him he did not set off any alarm bells at first glance. The point I am trying to make is that bad people cannot be spotted on sight.
Gossamer...Rest stops have a lot of crime. It's true you can't always spot bad people on sight, some of them look like good guys. However, sometimes your intuition can tell you that something is wrong, but then people dismiss it, only to regret it later.
"The last time I went to Texas I stopped at a rest stop to piss and I got mugged. He came out of nowhere and got into grabbing range before I realized he was there. I wonder how it would of ended up if I would of been paying attention. But to look at him he did not set off any alarm bells at first glance. The point I am trying to make is that bad people cannot be spotted on sight."
depends on how perceptive you are. and you can also "ping" - say or do something that makes him react, to help you get a read on him. a good doorman at a club won't just look at you...he'll make smalltalk while you wait in line, and he can gauge from your reaction exactly how drunk you are, what your attitude is, and how likely u are to start trouble once inside.
and how can you state "he did not set off any warning bells" if he "came out of nowhere" and "was in grabbing distance before i realized he was there.".
someone approaching me while i was taking a leak at a rest stop "sets of warning bells" right there.
i'm not trying to put you down, it's a lot harder to actually be aware 24/7 than it is to talk about it. but there are a lot of options and tools available. these are your "street tactics". if it was impossible to defend yourself properly in that situation, make sure you're not placed in that situation.
if someone is approaching you, you can cross the street or move so it's obvious if he's moving for you. you can challenge him before he is in "grabbing distance".
don't be afraid to trust your instincts or be confrontational. if something tells you the guy is bad, trust it, and react on it. don't be afraid to say "Back the fuck off!" "if you come closer closer, i'll consider it an attack and defend myself", and reach into your jacket like you're packing heat. he knows you're probably bluffing, but who wants to take the risk?
a high crime area (like a rest stop) calls for gary's "code orange" right there. put yourself in a position where you can see people coming. just being aware might have made him decide to wait for another, more vulnerable victim.
and again, it's easier to say than to do. i've had my moments too.
gossamer, how bad is your leg? good thinking with the cane defense and dog brothers. are sword canes legal in texas? or worth the risk? better judged by 12 than carried by 6. sword canes give you a stick in one hand and a blade in the other at a moments notice. if you look vulnerable, you will be targeted again and again.
was the leg duty related?
Yep the leg was hurt by an accident in Iraq. I took an uneccasary risk and now I am paying for it. I was wounded slighty acouple of months prior to that but it took my own foolishness to really hurt me! I guess if you want to mess up a Joe just let him run with a "great idea"!
Generally I am pretty observant but I was tired and I live in a low crime area in KS so I was flying on auto pilot.
The two fights I have been in since I have been hurt both ended up well for me but that was mostly luck and my natural grumpiness than any skill. A skilled fighter is a lot better than an unskilled fighter everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. My dad told me once that the difference between a trained fighter and a natural fighter is that both will lose fights but the natural fighter will get a hurt a lot worse when they lose. The same applies to a mugging. You are almost certaintly going to get hurt but if you do not train the odds are that you will be hurt far worse than if you just do what they tell you to do.
BTW - gossamer, disabled vets go to the top of most civil service lists. do some research, you would be amazed at some of the kick ass jobs you could get, no questions asked.
how much recovery do you excpect to get in that leg?
Great info Gannon old boy.
The Baron.