Saw it this weekend. Liked it, but knowing Hollywood, I figure it's full of historical mistakes...This may have been covered here before so sorry if it has. But a few questions....
Is there historical fact to Americans or Europians training the Japanese in modern warfare during the late 1800's?
Were Samurai rebellions put down? If so would they have not used firearms?
Weren't the Japanese (including the Samurai) using matchlock firearms much earlier?
Thanks in advance to anybody with the correct....
AFAIK, yes to all of your questions, Ronin. I haven't seen the flick yet, but Europeans (prolly not Americans) did train the Japanese in the use of modern arms at the end of the 19th century, although, yes, they had been using the more primitive firearms before then.
Samurai or peasant/samurai rebellions were put down. I think the most famous was Shimabara, a collection of ronin, disgrunteld samurai, peasants and Christians against the shogunate's loyal forces. I'm sure they used whatever means necessary to put that rebellion down. Been meaning to read up on this, actually. Any good sources, anyone?
Well It really did not have many inaccurices except that some of the Ashi-Garu wore swords with the cutting edge down instead of up. I posted this on another forum. Also the Ninja were using those square tsuba guard swords you find all day on the web. I do not really think the swords looked like that fromthe sources I have read about over the years. That was the only Hollywood type of thing I really had to quesiton because no one really knows what the Ninja looked exacly likein full gear? It was the first time I saw them portrayed with light leather armour under their black outfits. Yes I did think it was wierd that they did not use an firearms as the Portugese introduced gun powder to Japan in 1543. It may have been the point that this was one of the last hardcorp legion of Samurai around? Rebellions were common afte the power was restored to the emperor from the Shogunate. Hopefully the assholes oh moviemistakes.com don't shread it too bad.
Didn't the Shogunate ban firearms during their period of isolation, to insure the status of the Samurai?
Is there historical fact to Americans or Europians training the Japanese in modern warfare during the late 1800's?They did hire foreign experts from many different countries to help them establish new schooling systems, railroads, industrialization, and to train their Army and establish a Navy. For their Army, they initially went primarily with the French, as they were perceived at the time to be the best Army in the world. They switched over primarily to Prussian advisors following the Franco-Prussian war in 1871. One of the few lasting impacts the French had was in the dress uniforms of the Generals & Emperor. The braid on the officers sleeve was a French style. Were Samurai rebellions put down? If so would they have not used firearms?There were several peasant rebellions, and a few Samurai rebellions as well, including the Satsuma Rebellion in 1877. They did have some firearms and a limited amount of artillery (and for the most part, were not wearing Samurai armor), but nowhere near the amount the Army had, nor was it all the same quality. Many of the Samurai that took part in the Satsuma Rebellion were the same Samurai that had overthrown the Shogun a few years earlier. They certainly had no qualms about importing modern firearms to get rid of the Shogun... The whole thing about the "no firearms, swords only, wearing armor" is pretty much Hollywood emphasizing the rejection of the modern, and the ties to the old ways...Weren't the Japanese (including the Samurai) using matchlock firearms much earlier?Yes, they had been using firearms for quite some time. They just never further developed the technology... All-in-all, it was a bit Hollywood, but I think it did a pretty good job of capturing the spirit of the Samurai rebellions, if not all the actual historical details...
We have to realize that the movie does not say this particulair incident happened but rather things like it did. I just want to make that point because I know people will rip it apart.
Timbo,
I was taught in high school that the Japanese wanted to go with "the best of the best"--hence the Royal Navy influence and the Prussian Army influence. However, this site states that the Prussian deal didn't happen:
http://www.russojapanesewar.com/satsuma.html
Thoughts?
TFS
Darnit, TFS is going to make me research my facts...
Looks like it was a couple years after the Franco-Prussian war they finally made the switch. Yamagata Aritomo, as Vice Minister of Military Affairs wanted to make the switch right away, but wasn't able to implement the move to the Purssian model until he became Minister in 1878, so at the time of the Satsuma Rebellion, they still would have been under the French influence.
Gotcha--thanks!
I saw this article just googling around and thought it was pretty interesting. wanted to know how accurate it was.
http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/nitenhist.html
For a really good read on samurai and guns, see:
Perrin, Noel, "Giving up the gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879", 1980
Paul
For a really good read on samurai and guns, see: Perrin, Noel, "Giving up the gun: Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1543-1879", 1980The accuracy of Perrin's book has been questioned as of late--critics range from J. Christoph Amberger, to our very own Tactical Grappler...
On ninja:
the ninja-to is a myth, AFAIK. As for what they looked like, they would have looked like whatever was best for the job. Probably just regular samurai garb with dirt smeared on the face for scouting missions, or in a disguise, etc.
Historically, we know that ninjas were samurai that did the espionage stuff, and that the curriculum of some samurai schools of fighting included ninjutsu among its teachings. It has been suggested that there were a separate class of ninja, superstitious peasants that specialized in this stuff, but concrete info on them is nebulous. Such peasants may have been rural folk especially adept at camouflage and stealth much like the guerrilla fighters in the American revolution and Civil War, and they may have taught techniques to samurai who passed it on to other samurai. These folk may have congealed into secret societies with their rites and superstitions, etc. But I don't think they can be classified as a whole.
And I think a black hooded outfit was probably a dumb idea. Why not disguise one's self as a servant of the house? Or, if you're gonna just bust in there on a commando raid, armor up and throw a black handekerchief over your face.
gotgame, that's always been my take on the ninja. Especially with all the unconfirmed stuff stated as fact from the Budikon (sp?). The more professional ninja were the equavalent of Green Berets, Force Recon, SEALs, etc....Peasents doing those thing would indeed be guerrillas. IMO....
On ninja:
the ninja-to is a myth, AFAIK. As for what they looked like, they would have looked like whatever was best for the job. Probably just regular samurai garb with dirt smeared on the face for scouting missions, or in a disguise, etc.
Historically, we know that ninjas were samurai that did the espionage stuff, and that the curriculum of some samurai schools of fighting included ninjutsu among its teachings. It has been suggested that there were a separate class of ninja, superstitious peasants that specialized in this stuff, but concrete info on them is nebulous. Such peasants may have been rural folk especially adept at camouflage and stealth much like the guerrilla fighters in the American revolution and Civil War, and they may have taught techniques to samurai who passed it on to other samurai. These folk may have congealed into secret societies with their rites and superstitions, etc. But I don't think they can be classified as a whole.
And I think a black hooded outfit was probably a dumb idea. Why not disguise one's self as a servant of the house? Or, if you're gonna just bust in there on a commando raid, armor up and throw a black handekerchief over your face.
If you look at the Secreats of the Samurai book they have a small chapter on Ninja and the drawings are pretty right on. Not all of them have all black outfits on and again its ture. They probably did what was right for the job. I always thought that even in the early 1980's that Hollywood took over and kind of mystified the whole thing. One thing is for sure Samurai were not Ninja and vise-versa. During the heyday Ninja clans were the lowest of the low so they had to become more resourceful in warfar. Japan had a caste system. You could not just be a Samurai, you had to be part of that class.
"If you look at the Secreats of the Samurai book they have a small chapter on Ninja and the drawings are pretty right on."
I may have to check that out. Is this Ratti and Westbrook? I've heard that the book is not to good. But period drawings may provide some insight. Still, one should be warned -
"I always thought that even in the early 1980's that Hollywood took over and kind of mystified the whole thing."
This had actually begun way, way before, as the black-clad magical ninja character was a stock of Japanese puppet theater and other stories for quite some time. So this further obscured what we know of the ninja.
"One thing is for sure Samurai were not Ninja and vise-versa. During the heyday Ninja clans were the lowest of the low so they had to become more resourceful in warfar."
Like I said, maybe there were some peasants that specialized in the stuff and retained a clan identity, and the samurai would have used them as scouts or agents provocateurs or what have you. But it should be noted samurai did the ninja stuff, too - even today, some of the koryu still have ninjutsu as part of their curriculum, although I'm sure what that includes is quite secretive.
Trying to think if there was a European equivalent to ninjas. Anybody?
Secret agent? Spy? Assasin?
Like, if there was a clan of farmer-warriors in Northern England, and every time the poop went down the king rode up to them and asked, "Can you help us out with some guerrila warfare?" And they said, "Sure, guv," did some stuff, trained some knights, and then went back to farming and practicing the occult. That's, I think, what it'd be like.
I got ya.....That would be a bit of a stretch though huh? Just makes me doubt the whole super secret ninja clan stuff even more....
I see I am agreeing with you and yes that is the Ratti and Westbrook book. I have an orginal printing with a collectors case. You sill can get it used.