Every six months the board seems to attract a new batch of people who are god's answer to grappling and every six months I feel even more clueless than I did when I knew far less.
The divergence in relative position makes me shake my head in amazement.
If there were a magic bullet to defeat a strong turtle, international caliber players like Josh wouldn't be singing the praises of the position.
SS,
indeed sir.. you are right.
LOL at SMS's gift for irony. Well done!
Ben R.
judo minds - there are more answers than what judo has for cracking the turtle.
A good wrestler or a great BJJ player needs about 6 months of thinking in order to kill someone in a turtle.
It is my opinion that the part of judo is this sad excuse for a movement...the turtle is a complete joke and should be ban from the sport.
With that being said - I promise that the bow and arrow works... with a knee or your head.
JAA.. i openly invite your attempts at it on me anytime you wish.
I've got my bjj methods and I've got my judo methods.
depends on the scenario.
btw: Dave Williams showed me a nice series of turnovers with the gi on. I use a similar method I call the "seatbelt" in no gi grappling, so it was very cool to find a similar method and transitions for the gi.
the best people i know of who can "crack" a turtle are able to do it becuase they dont try to punish the person in the position with things like bow and arrows that really dont work.
the make uke shift his weight off of his base. generally they do it with simple things-- like grabbing the hip from one side and just pulling him over to the ground so uke isnt on his knees. or they will lace one leg through and use it as a level to turn uke to his side. if they are really good at sangakyu they will try that after dragging uke across the mat to loosen him up.
but, truly.. if the person is good at a position like the turtle and he has some level of pain tolerance what JAA is telling you will work almost never unless you are some type of physical freak.
Mike Swain has an awesome newaza tape on how to defeat the turtle. Its volume 2 in his newaza set. If you can get it check it out.
lets play...
I got to say that the turtle is the worst part of the game...and that I promise - wrestling has many answers for this - all of which involve pain.
i wouldnt say that wrestling doesnt have an answer for what happens in wrestling. but, to be very honest.. in nearly 20 years of judo-- 15 of which have been traveling all over the country and other countries, i have very, very rarely seen a wrestler's stack or a craddle and im pretty damn sure NEVER seen a bow and arrow of any kind work in a tournament against a player who was any good to begin with.
the only times ive seen wrestlign pins really work in judo were when guys who had been doing judo since childhood also wrestled. 99.9% of the time it would take place at the HS Nationals where wrestling season just ended and the players were just getting back into the swing of judo.
hey.. im not telling you it cannot work 100% across the board. im telling you the odds on it working in a tournament against a player of a slightly above average skill level is pretty damn slim.
if you dont want to believe me.. hey, thats fine.. but im pretty sure that if it was the type of stuff that worked to the ratio you claim that id have seen it a lot more frequently over these 15 years.. afterall, some of the best judo players in the US are also HS state wrestling champs/medallists and even All-Americans in college.
Judo in the US is pretty weak.
My friend Mike Schoech (high school wrestler) entered and won a state judo tourny (open div) having never even practiced judo once & not really knowing the rules.
You haven't seen the wrestler stuff that much because not many wrestlers play judo.
I love using the turtle because of things I do from that position. and I
love attacking people in it. I am still waiting to run into those that can
fight effectively.
Hooks are ok buut limit your potential attack or escape possibilities.
Perhaps the use of a single hook may work better then full hooks.
Remember we are doing Judo not Jujitsu and the Judo refs won't give
you the newaza time.
David
If you attack the spine with your bow-and-arrow trick you will be DQ'd right out of a judo tournament.
The turtle is very basic to competitive judo. Most competitors are quite happy to fight from their backs but they are also trained to turn out of a throw to land on their stomachs to minimize the score.
If you land on your stomach with your opponent on top it's simply prudent to stay in that position and protect yourself and wait for matte or for your opponent to make a sloppy attack to launch your own counterattack. The alternative is to turn over into a pin or at best a position where your chances of mounting your own submission or pin is minimal
I would say by far the biggest mistake a BJJ player or groundfighter makes in entering a judo tournament is going to his back and Ipponing himself before ground-work even begins. What could have been yukos and kokas or even no score become ippons. Wrestlers generally don't because they are conditioned not to expose their back to the mat ..and they will turtle .
I would also say the animal instinct is to go to your back to face an opponent and it takes a lot of conditioning to turn-out or spin-out from a throw and go to your stomach,
The bottom line is those that say "I don't turtle" are usually easy Ippon's
okay.. JAA and funky have proven their point. wrestling rules over all judo tournaments and none of us will be able to withstand the bow and arrow attack to a turtle position...
even if we have already delt with it... even if we were/are wrestlers ourselves... there is no possible way for that type of attack to fail in judo. none. fact, JAA and funky have cracked every single person they have ever encountered in a turtle and are currently US national champions due to their amazing effectiveness in newaza.
"Show me the guidelines to get an IPPON."
WTF? how about you take the time to read judo's competion rules, not hard to find.
See http://www.judoinfo.com/pdf/Contest%20Rules-03.pdf
100% agreed that judo is weak in the US - in fact its REALLY sad...but moving on from that
to be honest - chances are you will not get an ippon from using a bow and arrow on any skilled player. They will break to guard and fight hands most likely.
All this does is make it painful to remain in the position and creates a "scramble" opp that you never would of had before. To actually get an ippon - 25 secs of hold down - from a the turtle position is nearly impossible. It takes a series of moves - not just one.
Witness one of the greatest failings of the American public educational system; the inability to apply context to a position in an argument. Strategies and tactics are all contingent on the rules of the contest.
If I turtle in a Jujitsu contest I get to go home early. If I jump to the guard in a sambo contest, I get to have my legs twisted in directions they weren't made to twist.
The hallmark of an excellent grappler is their ability to adjust their strategies and tactics so as to triumph within the rules of the contest in which they're competing.
Josh wouldn't turtle in a steel cage death match either. But that's not judo.
SS, indeed sir.. you are right. though, watching somebody turtle in a steel cage would be funny.
i do, however, think that JAA needs to actually spend some time on the mat with some judo players who are, or have been, at the top in US Judo.. im pretty sure he would STFU about how weak we are. he obvioulsy just doesnt understand what judo has become worldwide.
I did not say that ALL judo players are weak - in fact I think that judo has some of the best out there in terms of talent.
But the fact is - so many are weak it gives the sport a bad name.
Compared to wrestling - which has thousands and thousands of daily trainers who compete every other week and dedicate their lives to the sport - judo has a very small following.
I bet 1/1000 judo players actually train 4 times a week or more. And of that, only a handful have done nothing but judo their entire lives.
Joshua, I was never trying to say "wrestling is better than ..." or anything gay like that. I was trying to make a point that not all effective tacticts are neccesarily taught & practiced normally by Judo. You were casually dismissing what JAA had said as if there is nothing left for you to learn. Even the top coaches in the world still learn quite regularly.
JAA has been on the mat with several great judo players. If you have been around judo tounaments on the national level enough then you should be familiar with the name Josh Grun.
"he obvioulsy just doesnt understand what judo has become worldwide." The US as a whole is generally not near the top of international judo play.