allcloser,
IPPON is the only thing that matters in a match, huh?
No other way to win? Use you imagination, bro. There are many wrestling techniques that are usefull in judo especially at the lower levels. It is difficult for someone who has never had leg takedowns run on them to adjust in a tournament, for instance.
So is the bow-and-arrow the flavor of the month or something?
"so I think I know how good US wrestlers could also be in pinning, but I also think I know they are very, very vulnerable when CLAD IN A GI."
you answer your own question, bro.
I diddn't say a college wrestler could join a judo club & beat a legitimate player who has been competing for years.
I said " There are many wrestling techniques that are usefull in judo especially at the lower levels."
One I mentioned above; leg takedowns. Doublelegs can score & a single can if you do it right. Anckle pick can score. Wrestling throws can be adapted to score, such as the old school headlock (the mean one, not the pussy one) can score & leave your opponent disoriented. Pins feel natural as you mentioned.
Many other things do not score, but do improve postion or force a scramble which can lead to position. Examples of these "many" things are: JAA's bow & arrow, armdrag to take someone's back, & a natural defense to throws from wrestling.
I guess you are right...I have only played judo for a few "DAYS".
Look, man. I was only saying, as I stated above, I was trying to make a point that not all effective tacticts are neccesarily taught & practiced normally by Judo.
You don't have to like what I think, just don't be a fag about it.
AC / Complete-
Lol @ the thread(wrestling vs. judo) thus far...
Here's a few things that I've used over the years. Although they probably aren't nearly as effective as the Bow and Arrow technique, they have worked. Just remember there is no magical technique and if one thing doesn't work, just move on to another...
This could get confusing -- Sorry if it does. Hopefully this is the kind of information you were looking for...
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From the turtle position(knees and elbows are tucked under):
Most people will tuck their elbows in, but if they don't I'll start with an armbar attack. Say they leave their left elbow out or you are able to move them around and they stick an arm out to catch their balance...
Choke:
If you are at their head, your right foot goes between their left elbow and ribs. Work the sankaku turnover. This is a common turnover that most higher level competitors know. If you don't know it, ask - it's a good technique.
Armbar:
If you are on their back and facing the same direction and straddling them, then block their left elbow and thread your right hand through the crook of their elbow (start from their left shoulder). Your left leg goes under their left hip and push it down between their legs, post out with your left hand and put your right shin on the back of their head (your right knee should be on the ground next to their ear). Sounds kind of like a twister move, but anybody that has attacked with armbars will know this one... Basically you should be at almost 90 degrees to them now. If you get to this point there are many scenarios, that I won't elaborate on, but it is very important to apply pressure to their head with your right shin in order to get them to roll or pop their head up, either way you are in a good position for an armbar.
Various:
Most tight turtles are easy to roll, but hard to unfold. They are kind of like weeble wobbles. the just seem to end up back where they started. What I try to do for a turnover if they are all balled up is to get in a position where you are just behind their hips and to the side. Say you have your left knee between theirs, and your right knee to the right of them. Try to bear hug them around their waist reach up towards their head more with your left arm and keep your weight low so they don't roll you. Now, cinch your arms up and roll to your back with them on top of you. It's really important that you practice controlling their body when you roll, otherwise they will just turn towards you. Most of the time once you roll them and they are facing the ceiling they will open their tight turtle to get back to their stomach and give you the opportunity to hook an arm, sink your hooks in, or work a choke.
Word of caution: Don't ever pull somebody straight back over their feet. Always roll a little bit to either side so that your partner can return the next practice without an injury.
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I'm pretty sure you are not concerned with the spraweld position so I'll only put one generic attack to it...
Choke:
Sink your hooks in and apply as much pressure to their back as possible by straightening your legs and arching your back(you should be applying downward pressure with your hips). I do this to reduce some of their defense to the choke. Now start at the back of their ears and push in and down the jaw line. You can usually work your hands in for hadaka jime. Most veteraned competitors won't let you get this one, but it has worked for me...
By the way,
good luck.
RonB
The wrestling techniques that are most effective are those that are lifted from Big Time Wrestling. Next time a guy turtles, try this. Knock one of the kids timing your match out of their chair, grab the chair and this is very important, be sure to fold the chair. Whack the turtled chump over the back until one of his hands reaches for the small of his back. You'll know he's in severe pain at that point. Since he's hurt so badly, as evidenced by the clutching at the small of his back, take a moment to strut around the mat. Raising both arms into the air really aids in the effectiveness of the strut technique.
Good luck and good judo!
Yah-then grab them by their hair, watch out for the sucker punch, because sometimes they will wait for the hair grab as a cue to give you a nut shot. Escort them over to the table and begin smashing their head into it. If there is a power cord of any type give them a 2 to 3 second strangle.
That'll probably put them on their back at which point you can pin them for at least a 2 count....
If they try the nutshot and I fall to the ground I can usually rely on having my buddy run in from outside the arena at full speed and do a clothesline while my opponent is doing his strutting. Then I stand up and we grab him and throw him against the ropes so we can do the double drop kick.
I don't recommend doing a double clothesline. Half the time your opponent will duck under it and then you have to start all over again.
Also don't forget the boston crab, especially if they are sprawled out. They hate that.
Let's also not forget biouwling versus the turtle. Just run to one corner of the mat and when they look to see what you are doing roll a bowling ball right into the pocket between the head and shoulder. They go right over. I think I saw Rhadhi do something similar to this against Prieditis in Cleveland a couple of years back.
Some people prefer to just drop a ball on top of the dude's head which is easy to do but doesn't really push them over. Most veterans only have a few brain cells left anyway so cracking their skull doesn't always work out as well as you would think.
AC,
Right on - I've used those two as well. Maybe there's a way to incorporate a bow and arrow in those somehow.... :-)
Where are you from?
RonB
"you answer your own question dipshit. "
No name calling, whoever you are. This is your first and last warning.
Ben R.
I cmon guys
We are off base here
attacking the turtle -
technique vs pain
that is what it comes down to
I prefer pain...
because technique almost never works... how about that!
maximum technique + maximum pain
Technique that doesn't work is bad technique. Pain is the frosting on the cake. All moves should hurt, but a move that is based only on the opponent feeling pain makes too many assumptions.
using the pain to make techniques work - its ok
but its so hard to make anything work against an "accomplished turtle boy"
I pretty much gave up on trying to turn good people and resorted to hurting them instead. Try it - it makes you feel alot better afterwards.
Well, I'm of the "everyone has to turn one way or another" school. But if not turning happens for whatever reason then you should definitely let them enjoy whatever punishments you *can* do....just as long as you aren't dishing out what you can't take.
Has anyone ever tried grabbing the ankles of the guy doing the turtle and pulling one or both of his legs out from under him? I have had success with this with many times and, for those of us who attack with leg locks, it can be a set up for submissions.
Of course, since a lot of people on this thread use them, this can still be useful, as when you snatch a leg out from underneath the man doing the turtle, you are "taking out the leg of a table". A lot of times, the person will roll out from turtle on his own, but if they don't, there is a big hole right there to attack with any other techniques that have been mentioned in this thread.
The pulling the legs out reminds me of one.
You approach the turtle from the side, and control the upper body head, can't remember exactly how, though.
Place your rear knee against his leg just above his knee.
Grab his ankle and pull his leg towards you, right on the mat. YOu can roll him over (sometimes) as it happens.
What happens is, you put pressure on his knee, which breaks the turtle. As he can move to relieve the pressure, it's not an illegal joint attack.
Ben R.
Scrub turnover
1. Uke is balled up in turtle. Tori is seated on mat on uke's left side, facing toward uke's feet.
2. Tori grabs the back of uke's belt with his left hand, fingers in with palm up. Tori's left elbow is in the middle of uke's back (spine).
3. Tori is seated on the mat with his legs in more or less the same position one would take for kesa gatame (only he is facing toward the rear). Tori's left leg is forward and his right leg is back and bent.
4. To apply pressure and effect the turnover, Tori grabs uke's left pants leg near the knee and lifts/drives uke over. You should aim to turn uke over at an angle over is right shoulder. You left hand/arm is doing a curling motion like weight lifting (elbow is pushing down into the back and hand is lifting the belt). Your legs driving off the mat, and hands lifting at the belt and pants leg provide the power for turnover.
5. Uke may defend by posting his right arm on the mat. In which case, you can scrub the mat with him.
hey incident,
stop trolling you biouwling jock rider!
Gentlemen;
1. As was said, and I'm Steve's coach; if you are behind you do NOT
attack the turtle, period. The odds of a score are just too small.
2. If you are ahead, then GO FOR IT.
Now, much has been said about "effective" turns for score vs "pain".
Well, in the first place there is no 100% effective turn. However, if you
can make the person not want to go back to the turtle, or hesitate a bit
before they do, the game is changed.
The real issue is choosing a turn that the ref's will give you time to play
with. Just grinding a neck will get stood up MUCH faster than going
after a sankaku turn; for one example.
Mark Tripp wrote:"1. As was said, and I'm Steve's coach; if you are behind you do NOT attack the turtle, period. The odds of a score are just too small. "
I think it depends on how far behind you are, and at what point in the match it is, and the exact situation overall. Plus how good you are at attacking the turtle.
If I were as good as Jimmy Pedro, behind by a koka with less than a minute into the match, I'd probably go for the rolling juji if the opportunity presented.
Ben R.