Quite possibly my favourite analyst in the game. His GOAT list is:
GSP (defeated 3 generations of fighters)
Jones (says GSP and Jones are nearly interchangeable)
DJ
Fedor
Aldo (stronger competition than Anderson’s, almost as long of title defense streak as Anderson’s)
Anderson (more losses in dominant fashion)
Does not count PED violations in this list.
Says top criteria is competion beaten although does not finish criteria in order, does list them per fighter.
Some of my input:
DC and Khabib probably start deserving some mention but may not crack the list above …yet
DJ may be underated for his competition beaten due to the fact that the FLW div was not given as much promotion and prominence thus his oppoents beaten didn’t have the stature that MAYBE other equivalents in other divisions had?
DJ: you cannot argue with the sheer # of title defenses in 11 including what was a very razon thin and arguable defeat to Cejudo
DJ has 7 finishes out of 11 defenses…don’t think people realize that AND he had both subs and KO/TKOs…backing up the notion that he is perhaps the most completer/rounded fighter in the bunch…I think this is a good argument why he is more rounded than GSP…they both have striking, tds and ground but DJ had more finishes with striking and subs
Aldo had 9 title defenses people forget: 7 in UFC and 2 in the WEC and the WEC was the top FW org at the time…that puts him tied for 3rd with GSP (DJ - 11, Anderson - 10, GSP/Aldo - 9)
Aldo like GSP did not have many finishes but like GSP his level of competition was top notch and beat maybe 2 generations of fighters? If he would have beaten Connor, Max and Volk - he maybe the undisputed GOAT - that would have been the 3rd generation
The PED violations may be taken into different account by various opinions for Jones and Anderson. I am not sure where to weigh those. Andreson didn’t happen until post-prime and after a career changing injury. Jones it happened in his prime and perhaps his signature win was PED marked - the leg kick KO over DC…although like the Weasle noted, Jones did beat DC convincingly the first time.
GSP avenged both of his losses in dominant fashion.
DJ also settled the score over Benavidez with a KO after his split decision win over him the first time. I also thought he beat Cejudo in the rematch although it was very close …I did watch it a few times after…
Fedor is understably a tough one for some because of the fact that he did not comer to the UFC in his latter career but that would have been for either his 2nd or 3rd generation of competition. He beat the best in Pride which was a superior organization to the UFC HW at the time. He then beat his 2 top counterparts from the UFC for his Pride reign in AA and Sylvia and did so in dramatic first round finishes.
Yes his comp in Pride was not all stellar throughout.
None of the above, including Khabib got handled in their primes. DC did but I think has done enough to put himself up there somewhere and the 1 loss had the PED violation. Is DC and Cejudo the only ones to defend both titles?
Where we rank Cejudo?
Not sure how many defenses Fedor has but he did have a long reign as the Man.
Why are title defenses weighed so highly? As the Weasel and I think as most analysts and champs themselves (in any sport) will tell you. Its a lot easier to kick ass on the “come up.” Its waaay harder to keep beating guys once you are the Man or the Champ. That shows you not only got to the top of the mountain but you stayed there and fended off all comers over a sustained period. That shows beat guys who are the most motivated to beat you and have been training to beat you for a long time. Its a lot of pressure too. Ask any long time champ or any multiple defending champ in any sport.
Consistency at the top also speaks for itself imo. You can have flashes of brilliance on occasion but for a defending champ, you cant have a bad day. You have to find the way to win night in, night out, year in, year out.
Where you do rank things like finishes and diversity of finishes or skills shown? I think they are secondary to the overall resume of competition beaten and title defense reigns. But certainly a finish makes wins emphatic. Diversity of skills goes to overall skills shown. I think this is lower on the list to actual quality and number of wins but i guess you cant talk about a GOAT without talking about skills.
I suppose beating someone at their own games is not for nothing. Like Jones has on numerous occasions.
Comeback wins are also show heart and will to win upon the edge of defeat. Anderson’s first fight against Chael is obviously a good one. Fedor didnt look so good in some bouts but always came back to win for a long time (AA, Hunt, Rogers).
GSP came back strong against injury fighting Diaz, Condit and Hendricks within a year of reconstructive knee surgery. That is fucking legendary. He also came back against the headkick against Condit.
Wasa-B - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzf_8-DkC_IQuite possibly my favourite analyst in the game. His GOAT list is:
GSP (defeated 3 generations of fighters)
Jones (says GSP and Jones are nearly interchangeable)
DJ
Fedor
Aldo (stronger competition than Anderson’s, almost as long of title defense streak as Anderson’s)
Anderson (more losses in dominant fashion)
Does not count PED violations in this list.
Says top criteria is competion beaten although does not finish criteria in order, does list them per fighter.
If you don’t count PEDs, I agree with putting GSP and Jones at the top, but I think Fedor has to be there with them. 10 years at the hardest weight to keep a streak going is unreal. Given the quality of competition, I don’t think it’s right to put DJ above Fedor.
I’d go:
1: Jones/GSP/Fedor
2: Anderson
3: Aldo/DJ
I think Randy and Hendo and also Sakuraba who seems to have fallen off this discussion recently deserve mention for their legendary sets of wins. They lost a lot but they won in epic and dramatic bouts.
Wasa-B - Where you do rank things like finishes and diversity of finishes or skills shown? I think they are secondary to the overall resume of competition beaten and title defense reigns. But certainly a finish makes wins emphatic. Diversity of skills goes to overall skills shown. I think this is lower on the list to actual quality and number of wins but i guess you cant talk about a GOAT without talking about skills.I suppose beating someone at their own games is not for nothing. Like Jones has on numerous occasions.
Comeback wins are also show heart and will to win upon the edge of defeat. Anderson’s first fight against Chael is obviously a good one. Fedor didnt look so good in some bouts but always came back to win for a long time (AA, Hunt, Rogers).
GSP came back strong against injury fighting Diaz, Condit and Hendricks within a year of reconstructive knee surgery. That is fucking legendary. He also came back against the headkick against Condit.
IMO, dominance matters more than finishes. Especially when finishes come against weaker opposition.
Anderson finishing Dan Henderson is a huge deal. Anderson finishing Cote is less of a big deal and certainly not as impressive as GSP dominating Fitch or Fedor smashing Nog.
Jones’ first win over DC means more to his legacy than his finish of Rampage.
wiggum -Wasa-B - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzf_8-DkC_IQuite possibly my favourite analyst in the game. His GOAT list is:
GSP (defeated 3 generations of fighters)
Jones (says GSP and Jones are nearly interchangeable)
DJ
Fedor
Aldo (stronger competition than Anderson’s, almost as long of title defense streak as Anderson’s)
Anderson (more losses in dominant fashion)
Does not count PED violations in this list.
Says top criteria is competion beaten although does not finish criteria in order, does list them per fighter.
If you don’t count PEDs, I agree with putting GSP and Jones at the top, but I think Fedor has to be there with them. 10 years at the hardest weight to keep a streak going is unreal. Given the quality of competition, I don’t think it’s right to put DJ above Fedor.
I’d go:
1: Jones/GSP/Fedor
2: Anderson
3: Aldo/DJ
Seems like GSP is arguably #1 at worst on anyone’s list then?
I am a Canadian as well as a GSP fan regardless and I would say the MW win is not as great as some other 2nd divisional win since the speficially chose Bisping and who wasn’t the strongest MW champ…although he did still move up and finish Bisping.
On a side note, how do you think GSP vs Anderson would have gone? I guess it matters if at MW vs catch weight.
Still, overall, its the same 6 fighters in diff orders. I think Aldo rightly has to be in the conversation. He is a bit like GSP in that he was kicking ass on the come up and got more conservative as a champ but you cant argue with the sustained title reign of which both have 9 defenses
wiggum -Wasa-B - Where you do rank things like finishes and diversity of finishes or skills shown? I think they are secondary to the overall resume of competition beaten and title defense reigns. But certainly a finish makes wins emphatic. Diversity of skills goes to overall skills shown. I think this is lower on the list to actual quality and number of wins but i guess you cant talk about a GOAT without talking about skills.I suppose beating someone at their own games is not for nothing. Like Jones has on numerous occasions.
Comeback wins are also show heart and will to win upon the edge of defeat. Anderson’s first fight against Chael is obviously a good one. Fedor didnt look so good in some bouts but always came back to win for a long time (AA, Hunt, Rogers).
GSP came back strong against injury fighting Diaz, Condit and Hendricks within a year of reconstructive knee surgery. That is fucking legendary. He also came back against the headkick against Condit.
IMO, dominance matters more than finishes. Especially when finishes come against weaker opposition.
Anderson finishing Dan Henderson is a huge deal. Anderson finishing Cote is less of a big deal and certainly not as impressive as GSP dominating Fitch or Fedor smashing Nog.
Jones’ first win over DC means more to his legacy than his finish of Rampage.
Yes, agreed. This is what I mean that overall resume (quality) of competition beaten esp in title defenses means the most.
I think the mistake that many people make is the deductive element - that so and so’s single win or achievement wasn’t as great for this or that reason. It has to be comparative to the other GOAT contenders in their overall resume. Kinda like how people weigh tds in a round. You cant judge a td on its own - its what the guy did without it in the overall context of the round to score the round. Who did more in the overall round? Thus who did more in their overall career?
GSP (defeated 3 generations of fighters)
Jones (says GSP and Jones are nearly interchangeable)
DJ
Fedor
Aldo (stronger competition than Anderson’s, almost as long of title defense streak as Anderson’s)
Anderson (more losses in dominant fashion)
GSP and Fedor are interchangeable at number 1 spot.
Jones does not belong on the list. Lots of questionable competition.
DJ did not have depth of competition in his division, but he should be recognized for being one of the most complete and well-rounded fighters to ever exist.
Anderson doesn’t belong on the list. He had some awful appearances even in fights he won. His “domination” was mostly smoke and mirrors.
Aldo was a great champ and is a great fighter, but I just never think of him as legendary in the same way I do Fedor and GSP.
Also, any GOAT list without Saku on it is suspect at best.
“Where we rank Cejudo?”
We don’t.
Wasa-B -wiggum -Wasa-B - Where you do rank things like finishes and diversity of finishes or skills shown? I think they are secondary to the overall resume of competition beaten and title defense reigns. But certainly a finish makes wins emphatic. Diversity of skills goes to overall skills shown. I think this is lower on the list to actual quality and number of wins but i guess you cant talk about a GOAT without talking about skills.I suppose beating someone at their own games is not for nothing. Like Jones has on numerous occasions.
Comeback wins are also show heart and will to win upon the edge of defeat. Anderson’s first fight against Chael is obviously a good one. Fedor didnt look so good in some bouts but always came back to win for a long time (AA, Hunt, Rogers).
GSP came back strong against injury fighting Diaz, Condit and Hendricks within a year of reconstructive knee surgery. That is fucking legendary. He also came back against the headkick against Condit.
IMO, dominance matters more than finishes. Especially when finishes come against weaker opposition.
Anderson finishing Dan Henderson is a huge deal. Anderson finishing Cote is less of a big deal and certainly not as impressive as GSP dominating Fitch or Fedor smashing Nog.
Jones’ first win over DC means more to his legacy than his finish of Rampage.
Yes, agreed. This is what I mean that overall resume (quality) of competition beaten esp in title defenses means the most.
I think the mistake that many people make is the deductive element - that so and so’s single win or achievement wasn’t as great for this or that reason. It has to be comparative to the other GOAT contenders in their overall resume. Kinda like how people weigh tds in a round. You cant judge a td on its own - its what the guy did without it in the overall context of the round to score the round. Who did more in the overall round? Thus who did more in their overall career?
Yes. It’s all holistic. Here’s whom I have at the top of certain criteria:
(1) Strength of schedule: GSP, Jones, Aldo
(2) Wins over all-time greats: GSP, Jones, Aldo, Fedor
(3) Reigns: Everyone on the list has great reigns. Fedor’s is most impressive, especially if you consider the weight
(4) The “eye test,” AKA “watch them fight”: Fedor, GSP, Anderson, Mighty Mouse
(5) Dominance: GSP, MM, Anderson
To me, going up a weight and finishes are bonuses. But, as I’ve mentioned, I don’t see what GSP did to Fitch as being less impressive then Anderson front kicking Vitor.
Soul Gravy - "Where we rank Cejudo?"We don’t.
He has secured his position as an all-time great and a hall of famer, but he lacks the reign and the dominance to be on the GOAT short list.
wiggum -Soul Gravy - "Where we rank Cejudo?"We don’t.
He has secured his position as an all-time great and a hall of famer, but he lacks the reign and the dominance to be on the GOAT short list.
I’ll add that while Cejudo has won and defended in two weight he has not done what Daniel Cormier did and cleared out a division.
There are still so many BWs for Cejudo to beat. He is not yet a top-2 all-time BW. TJ and Cruz are both ahead of him.
Soul Gravy - 1) GSP (defeated 3 generations of fighters)
Jones (says GSP and Jones are nearly interchangeable)
DJ
Fedor
Aldo (stronger competition than Anderson’s, almost as long of title defense streak as Anderson’s)
Anderson (more losses in dominant fashion)
GSP and Fedor are interchangeable at number 1 spot.
Jones does not belong on the list. Lots of questionable competition.
DJ did not have depth of competition in his division, but he should be recognized for being one of the most complete and well-rounded fighters to ever exist.
Anderson doesn’t belong on the list. He had some awful appearances even in fights he won. His “domination” was mostly smoke and mirrors.
Aldo was a great champ and is a great fighter, but I just never think of him as legendary in the same way I do Fedor and GSP.
Also, any GOAT list without Saku on it is suspect at best.
Jones has questionable competition and Fedor doesn’t?
Anderson doesn’t belong at all in the convo?
Aldo is not up there with the rest because he is not as “legendary”? That is kind of an admission of subjective criteria is it not? I think that is why you are ranking Saku so high. There is a difference between a legend and a GOAT.
I noted that I put Saku myself in the Randy and Hendo category. They don’t have the sustained reigns of dominance but have long lists of great wins still. Hard to judge Saku against the usual candidates because of how Pride matched him up.
wiggum -wiggum -Soul Gravy - "Where we rank Cejudo?"We don’t.
He has secured his position as an all-time great and a hall of famer, but he lacks the reign and the dominance to be on the GOAT short list.
I’ll add that while Cejudo has won and defended in two weight he has not done what Daniel Cormier did and cleared out a division.
There are still so many BWs for Cejudo to beat. He is not yet a top-2 all-time BW. TJ and Cruz are both ahead of him.
Great points. He is a bit like Connor where he took the stream lined path to “greatness” via the big profile accomplishments but still has not had the reign of consistency. If he is now a BW, he is not even yet the GOAT BW. His first title win was also very debatable and has not “avenged” it or put the doubt to rest like DJ did with Benavidez for example.
I think perhaps the main take away is that Aldo deserves to be in the convo amongst the standard candidates.
I think people seem to acknowledge DJ is one of the GOATs but isn’t put up at the top of the list. With him being in One, I guess he is focusing more on $ than “legacy” since he already has a GOAT worthy legacy imo. I suppose he could come back for a “super fight” to settle the score with Cejudo and that would give him his first bonafide marquee fight now that Cejudo’s star has risen? Cejudo again, seems a bit more Connor-esque in chasing the big profile fights and prob will not want to look back to really settle the DJ situation like Connor never looked back at FW even though he did not defend the FW title once.