how the hell do you have Belerus above Canada?
I would rank it as follows:
1) 155 lbs and under, Japan is no.1
2) 170 lbs and over, the US is no.1
3) Both under 155 and above, Brazil is no.2
4) Canada/Russia are a tie overall for fourth*
5) S. Korea/the Netherlands are a tie for fifth
6) Trailing somewhat behind the rest is Britain.
- I tie Russia with Canada because both have a lot of up and coming fighters with promise, I believe. However, only time will tell which country develops among these more elite fighters. I should add though that Canada's proximity to the US market dramatically improves Canadian fighters' (vis-a-vis their Russian counterparts') chances of breaking out as well-known, accomplished fighters, which will in-turn encourage more talent to develop and so on and so forth.
Either way, there is still a pretty large gap between the big 3 (USA, Brazil, Japan) and the others. However, I always look forward to seeing good talent come out of Canada, Russia, the UK, (South) Korea and the Netherlands.
-Mike
"I am talking about what countries are CURRENTLY producing (last 2-3 years + future potential).
Canada easily makes the top 5."
- Yeah, but still no way should Canada possibly be ranked ahead of Japan within that top 5 - either currently OR ever.
How many even arguably ranked fighters does Canada have now?
GSP, Kang, Carvalho, Hominick, Menjivar...
Now contrast that with Japan, which has Gomi, Kawajiri, Sakurai, Aoki, Ishida, Akiyama, Misaki, Okami, Kid Yamamoto, Akitoshi Tamura, Lion Takeshi, Imanari, Hioki...
So by no standard of measure has Canada produced more ranked fighters - either presently or historically.
"how the hell do you have Belerus above Canada?"
- I don't.
I was counting the three Eastern Slavic republics of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus collectively.
Canada calls shotty on fabiano. he's ours now!
personally i would place canada behind japan. but maybe on par with Russia. i don't know much about russias scene beyond a strong focus on sombo.
whereas Canada's focus is, drinking, hockey, hockey fights, then MMA. pretty much in that order.
once ontario gets things legalized, its gonna get outa hand real fast.
GOOD DISCUSSION. !!!
The scary part about Canada is, there are SO many good fighters that havent got a shot at the big times!
"Here are some big names off the top of my head in no particular order...
-Georges St. Pierre -Dennis Kang -Sam Stout -Chris Horodecki -Carlos Newton -David Loiseau -Joe Doerkson -Patrick Cote -Ivan Salaverry -Mark Hominick -Antonio Carvalho -Ivan Menjivar -Mark Bocek -Jason MacDonald -John Alessio -Kalib Starnes -Jason Day -Jonathan Goulet -Jeff Joslin"
- Yeah, and how many of those are even reasonably close to being considered top-ten at this time?
Exactly the ones I mentioned - GSP, Kang, Carvalho, Hominick, and Menjivar (and I was even being very generous by including Menjivar, who is a FW - but often fights at LW and has suffered losses as a result).
Salaverry and Loiseau WERE top-ten but have since dropped out, and Newton WAS a champ - but I thought we were now confining the discussion to the current state, instead of all-time (or else Japan's lead would even significantly widen over Canada).
(And calling all of those guys "big names" is rather laughably hyperbolic, don't you think.)
"then every Japanese fighter they can think of."
Btw, EVERY single Japenese fighter I specifically included is currently ranked in the top ten in his weight class, except for maybe Okami (who I have definitely seen ranked in the top ten, but who I don't feel deserves to be).
Again, how many Canadians are?
1) USA
2) Brazil
3) Japan
4) Canada
5) Russia
6) Not Britain
^^^ Good list
"They are big names, because everyone has heard of them..."
- Oh, so if you want to go by the lax and minimal standard of just "heard of" - then by applying that SAME standard to Japan's fighters, Japan's lead over Canada increases even more considerably.
After all, a lot more Japanese fighters have at least been "heard of" than Canadian ones. By your own standard then, that must make them all "big names" as well.
"We have tons of amazing guys, who never get a shot "
- But unfortunately until they actually do, they are still unproven as of now.
El Dirte without access to Halo 3 = top ten imo.
^ No, I'm American. So why should I cry?
I have no need to be self-delusional and defensive about my nationality and try to overcompensate for this inferiority complex by artificially puffing up my country's fighters over another's.
- USA
- Brazil
- Japan
- Russia
- Canada
I had Japan ahead of Brazil at first (especially because of Shooto and Pancrase) but then I thought about all those Team Japan Vs Chute Boxe Bushidos and changed my mind. Espcially when you consider all the smaller organizations they have in Brazil too. Could go either way though.
Also I'm Canadian and there's no way we should be ahead of Japan or Russia right now. If we get MMA legalized in Ontario things might change in that respect but at the moment they're ahead.
TTT
just an fyi, population of Canada is about 33 million.
Population of Japan is about 127 million.
Population of the USA is about 300 million.
Per capita Canada is kicking ass.
Good Call stinky salmon!
ok, let's put things in perspective. how many japanese fighters beat hughes? sakurai? nope. the shooto and pancrase are a tier below the UFC or pride.
joel gerson, a jiudoka, armbarred rumina sato, a top ranked shooto fighter in A league, while in shooto.
i believe marc bocek won the brazilian worlds in bjj, but a bjjist can confirm this.
dennis kang has beat ufc contenders.
Whoa, excellent work on the breakdown, HansumBoy. That was just a comprehensive analysis of everything from HW to FW.
Even if you don't agree with every single specific placing of MMAWeekly's rankings, they still do give a valid general overview of which fighters have proven to be among the best.
"the shooto and pancrase are a tier below the UFC or pride."
- Certainly not in the early days of NHB/MMA.
In fact, Shooto was THE premier org. for anything 183 and under for several YEARS - by virtue of the simple fact that NO other major-league orgs. had any weight classes under HW or 200 at the time.
So if you didn't think Sato (or Sakurai for that matter) was the valid #1 in his entire weight class by being the #1 in his Shooto division, then you are forgetting one essential truism - that Sato's and Sakurai's Shooto divisions WERE the entire weight class in MMA at the time.
The UFC and Pancrase were the only other A-level promotions around back then - and each only had an absolute weight class, and then the UFC added a 200 division (which became 205).
So if you want to switch from the current view to a more historical perspective, then Japan has produced even far more top-ranked fighters than Canada ever has.
And besides you're only taking isolated examples which are not nearly a sufficient statistical sample from which to draw any overarching conclusions.
Of course Canadians have beat Japanese, Americans, Brazilians, Russians, etc., before. And obviously vice versa as well.
The FACT still remains that to this point Japan has definitely produced many more top contenders in MMA than Canada has - both currently and historically.
"If we are including all weight classes (123, 132 and so forth) I think Japan should be tied with USA for number one, with Brazil second."
why because they have the most midgets? thats nothing to be proud of
''So if you didn't think Sato (or Sakurai for that matter) was the valid #1 in his entire weight class by being the #1 in his Shooto division, then you are forgetting one essential truism - that Sato's and Sakurai's Shooto divisions WERE the entire weight class in MMA at the time.''
while i actually like shooto, and agree with your weight class idea for the time period;
sato got armbarred by a canadian during his reign. although i seem to remember him also having probs with uno. by pointing out kang and GSP, i'm just saying that canadians are among the top fighters in their weight divisions. i can't say that quantity wise canada is up there though.
Top 5 Countries when fighting with a broken limb:
1. Armenia
2. Armenia
3. Armenia
4. Armenia
5. Armenia