It seems that overhooks are good for the closed guard to break posture and to attack.
Plus underhooks are useful for the butterfly and essential for half.
However, are underhooks really useful for the closed guard and for what attacks?
I sometimes get an underhook from the closed guard, clasp my hands together behind my opponent's head and scoot my hips out on the underhook side.
Then I will try to do an elbow press to an armdrag to a cross grip armbar. Sometimes I skip the elbow press and go directly to an armdrag if he's pulling hard out. Sometimes I take the back after the armdrag; sometimes I go to the high guard.
I'd like to get people's opinion on how you should control your opponent with an underhook. For example, should you be clasping your hands together? Should your ankles be crossed or one foot on his hip? Got any good setups? Etc.
I like the underhook when I'm having a hard time controlling the person from inside my closed guard. They sit up to get posture and I'll break their posture by underhooking and pulling their arm in. So I'll clasp my hands behind their head like jonpall is saying. I like the elbow press as a finsih or setup too. I'll use it slightly differently though. Say I have their left arm underhooked, I put my right foot in their hip and get my hips out to the same side. The difference comes with where I go with it. I prefer to use the fact that they're stretched out to pop my left leg up and over into a triangle attempt. Then I use the uncinched triangle to help me finish the elbow press, or if I can't get that, pivot out in the other direction and cinch my triangle on. Then of course you have your omo plata option as well after the triangle attempt.
I sometimes use them when my opponent is defending the overhook well. Theyre not as useful as overhooks so I tend to use them to open up other control positions (such as overhook, arm across body, etc)
Thanks for the replies.
jonpaul: is your elbow press a cutting armbar? (pressing the arm straight from the backside?)
I use underhooks from closed guard to body lock, for the head/arm harness position jonpaul described, and to reach for the shoulder/lat/hip on the way to the back or sweeps.
My highest percentage submissions from the closed guard underhook is the cutting armbar ("elbow press"?), kimura, and a modified kimura. If those fail it's about 50/50 on whether I get a triangle or sweep with a plata.
My highest percentage positional change from the closed guard underhook is a duckunder to the side underhooked. I setup with an overhook or trying to stuff his arm with a two on one, if they lift their elbow, underhook and get your head under the armpit, make sure you get a slight angle with your hips and fill all the space under their armpit with your head/shoulder/torso, the underhook then switches to the lat, far shoulder press (to climb), or hip (seatbelt) to continue around to the back.
Good training to you.
Dave in Oregon
Thanks, Dave. Can you explain how you get to your initial underhook control? Do you grab the head right away, f.ex.? Just curious if I can better my own underhook game.
Well let me say first that if the elbows are glued to the side, the better technique is probably going to be to stuff their arm, and when they react/respond, then underhook...
In theory I'm getting there a couple different ways though.... I'm using the underhooks as both a 'starting position' and also a 'go to position'.
For example:
as a go to by pummeling to an underhook after failed submission attempts.
as a "start position" by attacking the neck and then pummeling for over/under when they defend.
I've had this concept described to me by Roger Machado as finding your own little "islands" in which you can dock and take off from. Natural postural safety positions. But there are counters to them all. There are paths.
So with a gi often I attack the neck and base using the gi and look for the elbows to pop out. Underhooks or overhooks, armdrags, armstuffs, etc are two on one version of over/underhooks and should I combine them with my over/under entries.
No gi is more challenging to get it secure so here is one of my "go to" moves:
If they are upright I naturally need to sit up if I can not break their posture with my guard.
Once upright I'll play the armdrag game and see if anything comes up, but if nothing pops out I gotta change it up to the 'hip-over sweep / guillitine / kimura' triple fork move.
This is the move that is basically a "overhook" with your armpit crossing over and riding their opposite shoulder, which acts as a ledge. My elbow of the arm that is over the shoulder is in the middle of their back. You can also grab their gi belt from here.
At this point they are forced to respond or get reversed in one direction or submitted in two directions. If they successfully counter I will focus on digging for underhook or overhooks and using a technique that is appropriate to what I end up with.
Examples: Guillitine
I go for the guilltine : as they counter by getting both their arms in, I go back to pummeling which includes dragging the arms and looking for over hooks / underhooks. If I find a underhook at this transitional point I am looking for the cutting armbar, kimura, etc.
I go for the kimura: They base I get the kimura, they press on me, I switch to an overhook or underhook, whichever one turns out. Overhook I go for sweep. Underhook I go for submission or lockdown.
Setting it up the underhook right out of guard, I press the elbow to go around, they counter with posture I dig for underhook with my hip and my hand. Getting the hips involved helps to directly combat elbows that are stuck the the side. Getting the hip under or around the elbow will make them sweat, then look to break their posture when they counter and underhook overhook and climb instantly with the shrimp mechanics.
Sorry so much compressed into one message. Does this sound similar to what your doing? Maybe we should just shoot some mpegs and send them back and forth.
Dave Copeland
I'm not a big fan of underhooks whilst holding closed guard, speaking from (all to painful recent) experience it's just an invitation for a Cuff Choke.
Dave - good idea about using the hip bump/kimura/guillotine, aka. the "cross-overhook", as a setup for underhooks.
"Setting it up the underhook right out of guard, I press the elbow to go around, they counter with posture I dig for underhook with my hip and my hand. Getting the hips involved helps to directly combat elbows that are stuck the the side. Getting the hip under or around the elbow will make them sweat, then look to break their posture when they counter and underhook overhook and climb instantly with the shrimp mechanics. "
This is about the only part of your post that I didn't quite follow.
"Maybe we should just shoot some mpegs and send them back and forth."
That would be a good idea.
Here's an additional question:
For the closed guard AND standup wrestling AND even the butterfly guard, if you have an opponent that REALLY doesn't want you to get your underhooks, i.e. he keeps his elbows in tight to his ribs, and if you get an underhook, he looks to overhook you like crazy ... is he setting himself up for something else, f.ex. another control position? Maybe an arm drag? Note that I'm mostly interested in no-gi stuff at the moment.
Regards,
jonpall.
ttt
knowing how to use the underhook game with the overhook is what separates a good closed player from an elite.
TiTTy!
"Setting it up the underhook right out of guard, I press the elbow to go around, they counter with posture I dig for underhook with my hip and my hand. Getting the hips involved helps to directly combat elbows that are stuck the the side. Getting the hip under or around the elbow will make them sweat, then look to break their posture when they counter and underhook overhook and climb instantly with the shrimp mechanics. "
This is about the only part of your post that I didn't quite follow.
Meaning that if they keep their elbows tight I'm going to go around those elbows and stuff them with arm stuffs / or drags vs. clearly digging for overhooks or underhooks. I use my hips actively with this strategy, without the hips I have no power to drag or stuff the arm, particularly if my hips do not get around (for the back or sweep) under (for the climb or sweep) or over (for triangles). Only if I can get my hips to work in coordination with my overhook, underhooks, 2 on 1, armdrag, duckunder, etc, can I really do anything.
Last night I played around with this some more, thats why my post is a little late, i don't want to make up stories ;o).
So last night from closed guard, the 3 most common moves I pull off from a clear underhook position were:
a: the duckunder to the back
b: push sweep to the left w/ right underhook, left overhook
c: cutting armbar / modified kimura
My setups to get there were based on digging for overhooks and getting them to pummel, going for 2 on 1 arm drags and arm stuffs, attacking both the neck and base... ANYTHING to get their elbows to pop out. If they didn't pop out, i pressed them and tried to break posture down by keeping my hips glued to them.
Hope this helps bro. Again sorry late to post, wanted to try some stuff out so I wasn't dreaming.
Dave Copeland
ps - to address the second part, about establishing an underhook - at which time it's countered, is really I think playing the clinch game. For me, when I encounter this, I immediatly switch sides, under or overhooking / dragging, stuffing, the opposite arm, switching back to a forward clinch looking for an angle, or if it seems their counter is not backed up w/ positive base and control I'll go for the body lock.
I am not a clinch expert. But I'll give it a go and ttry to switch it up as much as possible. Theres a counter to everything. Hope this helps.
The clamp.