I am not sure if the training at the place I am at is really that good. I may have to find another school. I went last night and felt like I was owning everyone in the place when I wanted (this is not what I want). The black belts there are pretty skilled but they are older and a little out of shape. The younger guys that are green and purple belts there are actually tougher... maybe because of their youth but I am still not really challenged. I know that Judo is a skill I want to get really good at but some of the wrestler / jiu jitsu guys that I normally train with are much tougher in their stand up. I have a judo black belt that comes out on Saturdays to teach and he is tough as they come so I am gonna stick with that for sure but I need to find something else during the week. One thing that bothers me is the lack of people going for the legs... they seem to follow the new rules a bunch and a lot of times in Randori they say no to sacrifice throws so now I am not sure what to do.
1.... in judo there are lots of options for throws... people do nto have to go for the legs. in fact, the vast majority of the judokas in the world will not even try. the new rules really does not necessarily impact this one bit at the club you are at. it might impact it for a few guys, but most likely very few.
2.... what, you think that you being "tougher" than people means your judo is better or you cannot learn from them or take the coaching and get a good workout? When I was 16 or 17 I was the toughest guy in my home club, but my coach was a damn good coach and taught good technique and ran good practices. WOuld you be complaining if your wrestling coach was a 70 year old former Olympian or if your BJJ coach was old man Helio Gracie himself???
3... dont get me wrong, if it isn't the right club for you then that's fine and it is your call. what I am saying is that before you make the call you need to have reasonable viewpoints. A 350 lb former All-Pro nose tackle could walk into the door of the club I go to tomorrow and be the "toughest" guy in the place, but he certainly doesn't know jack about judo..
JoshuaResnick - 1.... in judo there are lots of options for throws... people do nto have to go for the legs. in fact, the vast majority of the judokas in the world will not even try. the new rules really does not necessarily impact this one bit at the club you are at. it might impact it for a few guys, but most likely very few.
2.... what, you think that you being "tougher" than people means your judo is better or you cannot learn from them or take the coaching and get a good workout? When I was 16 or 17 I was the toughest guy in my home club, but my coach was a damn good coach and taught good technique and ran good practices. WOuld you be complaining if your wrestling coach was a 70 year old former Olympian or if your BJJ coach was old man Helio Gracie himself???
3... dont get me wrong, if it isn't the right club for you then that's fine and it is your call. what I am saying is that before you make the call you need to have reasonable viewpoints. A 350 lb former All-Pro nose tackle could walk into the door of the club I go to tomorrow and be the "toughest" guy in the place, but he certainly doesn't know jack about judo..
You make good points... I think I need to look at other clubs though and find something that fits. Some of the technique that is shown is not always super detailed either and the practices are not super organized so I am gonna look at other clubs... I just want to get some time every week to practice throws and get good at them as well as get really good with the Randori.
Good luck finding a strong Judo school. I am not sure where you live, but, its hard to find.... I am lucky to have found one, but there have been periods when there wasn't even a place to do judo in a really large city... I know what you mean about some of these clubs. I have been to a few, but, you have to understand that most of the Judo guys in the country are not focusing on competition necessarily, just recreation.
Your story is a common one. That is why most young guys train BJJ,they attract the best young talent. Learn the teckniques from the older guys, you will need them as your competition level increases. Many of our top local talent has to train at other dojo's because there isn't a concentration of talent at any one dojo for the mnost part unless you find a dojo run by a top level instructor/club. Even our top judo players in the US train outside the US (or have it brought in) because that is where the talent is. When you go to local tournaments you can meet some of the top players in your state. I am one those older guys you mention but I am in shape. Judo takes a toll on your body over the years so you can't train as often.
Where are you from?
judoblackbelt - Your story is a common one. That is why most young guys train BJJ,they attract the best young talent. Learn the teckniques from the older guys, you will need them as your competition level increases. Many of our top local talent has to train at other dojo's because there isn't a concentration of talent at any one dojo for the mnost part unless you find a dojo run by a top level instructor/club. Even our top judo players in the US train outside the US (or have it brought in) because that is where the talent is. When you go to local tournaments you can meet some of the top players in your state. I am one those older guys you mention but I am in shape. Judo takes a toll on your body over the years so you can't train as often.
I agree with the toll it takes on your body... I am 27 and can't imagine myself doing hard Judo sessions more than 2 times a week.
I am able to train BJJ every day and even Muay Thai every day if I want but getting thrown and the strength output that can occur during Randori is enough to leave you feeling really banged up.
thePetester - Where are you from?
I am in Louisville, KY
One thing I think is good for beginners is to actually have a lower level of intensity to allow more technical work. The intensity will come, but it should compliment/build off of technical knowledge otherwise technical growth can suffer. Even with intensity, a shitty throw is a shitty throw.
There are some many different ways to get something out of a practice - If you can beat someone with intensity alone, try matching their strength/intensity level and then throwing them with perfect technique and control and as little effort as possible. Or work on new techniques, or your worst ones. or switch sides, or take away your favorite technique, etc. I've seen high level players, international level players, get great workouts from ymca practices.
As a beginner, a lot of clubs will discourage leg-attacks and sacrifice throws as the philosophy often is that practicing those techniques so early can hamper beginners' ability to learn kuzushi well.
You mentioned that the instruction lacks super-detail. I know when working with beginners, more detail isn't necessarily better as they get caught up so much in the details of what they get told that they forget the basic idea of what they're being taught. I'm not saying this is your case, as I have no idea what your level is or what the instruction is at the club, but, if you're used to bjj level of detail, I have yet to see it so much in judo. Usually it's here's a technique, watch it, ok work on it with a partner, revisit. Detail comes on a more individual level after initial instruction. Perhaps its something we can visit in another thread - how judo is taught.
jaykoo - One thing I think is good for beginners is to actually have a lower level of intensity to allow more technical work. The intensity will come, but it should compliment/build off of technical knowledge otherwise technical growth can suffer. Even with intensity, a shitty throw is a shitty throw.
There are some many different ways to get something out of a practice - If you can beat someone with intensity alone, try matching their strength/intensity level and then throwing them with perfect technique and control and as little effort as possible. Or work on new techniques, or your worst ones. or switch sides, or take away your favorite technique, etc. I've seen high level players, international level players, get great workouts from ymca practices.
As a beginner, a lot of clubs will discourage leg-attacks and sacrifice throws as the philosophy often is that practicing those techniques so early can hamper beginners' ability to learn kuzushi well.
You mentioned that the instruction lacks super-detail. I know when working with beginners, more detail isn't necessarily better as they get caught up so much in the details of what they get told that they forget the basic idea of what they're being taught. I'm not saying this is your case, as I have no idea what your level is or what the instruction is at the club, but, if you're used to bjj level of detail, I have yet to see it so much in judo. Usually it's here's a technique, watch it, ok work on it with a partner, revisit. Detail comes on a more individual level after initial instruction. Perhaps its something we can visit in another thread - how judo is taught.
Nice post, I basically agree with you. My experience teaching beginners is that too much detail generally overwhelms them, and is in fact a teaching flaw. Trying to explain all the details of even a "simple" throw like O Goshi most often gets a blank looks.
Ben
True it really depends on the school.... but in my experience ( have trained abit in other martial arts/ fighting arts- i.e. TKD, Shoot Fighting, Krav Maga) in training over a 20 plus year span Judo is bar none the toughest martial art out there... It takes a special kind of person to be able to take the years of punishment necessary to become a top level judo competitor....In the good judo clubs, due to the fact that most of us of more mature years need to go to work the next day, the randori tends to be very easy going... and don't judge how a person works in randor with how he actually is in competition.... one teammate at my former Judo club was the softest, most easy going teddy bear in randori, to the point I thought how did this person get his brown belt....then... I saw him fight in a tournament.... my eyes were opened... this dude is a beast....randori is for learning .... tournaments are for smashing....I now study BJJ almost exclusively because I just could'nt take the pounding of Judo due to my, to be PC, chronologically challenged condition ( okay I am old and creaky :-D)...I do get out on the Judo mat periordically to keep my "tolerance" up for getting smashed by 300 lb Judoka.... also I think Judo is great for the takedown phase of BJJ....Factoid: the guy who gets the takedown in BJJ generally wins the match.... Why not make it a high amplitude Judo throw...
I don't think I will write off the training there yet. In fact the people there are very nice and knowledgeable.
Now that I think about it. I just wanted to work on the techniques a lot more than what we were doing there but I have guys that I train bjj with that I can practice what I learned with some more.
I was talking with a guy yesterday that trained for a lot of years in Judo and he said that he would go to 3 different places in Louisville so that he could get work in with as many guys as he could. He said that he was having a hard time getting enough good work in at each place.
He boxes now and is having the same problems. We drove to a town in Indiana yesterday to get some work in with some boxers.
Treadlite82 - I don't think I will write off the training there yet. In fact the people there are very nice and knowledgeable.
Now that I think about it. I just wanted to work on the techniques a lot more than what we were doing there but I have guys that I train bjj with that I can practice what I learned with some more.
I was talking with a guy yesterday that trained for a lot of years in Judo and he said that he would go to 3 different places in Louisville so that he could get work in with as many guys as he could. He said that he was having a hard time getting enough good work in at each place.
He boxes now and is having the same problems. We drove to a town in Indiana yesterday to get some work in with some boxers.
San Antonio TX is real lucky to have too very good Judo clubs, Universal Judo Club led by Jim Hrbek and Alamo Judo Club led by Rene Zeelenberg... two different styles but equally as good...