I am updating the rules as we go through this.
Looking for everyone's input on grappling rules
Thanks
Time Limits for Matches:
Kids/Teens Beginner: One 3 minute period; One 2 minute period
Teens Int/Adv: Two 3 minute periods
White Belt/Novice: Two 3 minute periods
Blue Belt/Beginner: Two 3 minute periods
Purple Belt/intermediate: Two 4 minute periods
Brown Belt/Advanced:Two 4 minute periods
Black Belt/Pro:Two 5 Minute periods
Break Between Periods: 30 seconds
Ways to Win:
Submission
Majority Decision (Points)
Forfeit
Disqualification
Unconsciousness by Choke
TKO for White - Blue (Referee has the power to stop a match if a sub attempt is close to injury; this allows more submissions to be legal earlier)
for Purple - Black (Injury)
Tapping Out: Must be done verbally whenever available. If not available tapping the mat 3 times is acceptable with either the foot or hand.
Point Scoring During Match
Points are broken into 4, 3,2,1 point moves
Takedowns:
Takedown: 2 Points
A throw is automatically given 2 points regardless of control. A leg attack requires 3 seconds of control
High Amplitude Throw: 4 points
Puts opponent in inferior positioning for 3 seconds
Guard pass:
Side Control: 3 Points
Knee on Belly: 2 points
Mount: 4 points
Back control: Upper body control: 2 Points
Ride: 3 points
Both Hooks, Figure Four, Combination of upper and lower body control
Maintaining dominant position: Transition from top control to back control or back control to top control: 1 point
Attacking Advantage: If you hold your opponent in a position of danger (positioning) for 5 seconds (they do nothing but defend for 5 seconds in an attempt to score positioning): 1 point
Sweeps,Reversals,Escapes
Sweep: 3 Points
Reversal: 2 points
Escape to Full Guard: 1 point
Escape to Standing: 1 point
Escape from Strong Sub (points have been given to opponent): 1 point
Submission Scoring (Only purple/Intermediate and above as referees have power to stop white and blue)
Strong sub: when the opponent has to defend for 5 seconds and the criteria for a submission is met: 4 points
Strong sub but time is not met: 1 point
Penalty: 2 Penalties allowed 3 is a DQ
No attacking(Stalling) - 20 seconds: 2 points - Referees Position
- 40 seconds: 2 points Referees Position
Fleeing Out of Bounds - Backing up from opponent: 1 point
Fleeing Takedown/Submission: 2 points
Slamming for White/Blue Belts: 2 points
In the 2nd Round: If both opponents are not engaging for 20 seconds the referee will place the competitors in the referees position
Referees Position: Butterfly Guard with top mans hands on bottom mans knees and bottom mans hands on the mat.
Fouls:
Every Belt:
Fouls can be taken from any major grappling tournament
For Brown and Black Slamming to avoid submissions and an attempt to knockout wind is legal. Slamming where the head hits first is a DQ as intent to injure
Continuing to Attack a Submission After an Opponent Has Clearly Submitted given the rules is a DQ
White - Purple
No slamming to the back
No Exploding into Submissions (Applied Pressure Must Be Used)
You can explode into position but once the grip is broken applied pressure must be used
Intent to Injure
No Scissor Takedowns without a Hand on the mat first
Brown - Black
No Exploding into Submissions (Applied Pressure Must Be Used)
You can explode into position but once the grip is broken applied pressure must be used
No Intent to Injure
No Scissor Takedowns without a Hand on the mat first
Tie
For a Tie the wrestler who scored an offensive points last wins
If no points are scored a two minute sudden death overtime will occur
double post
Totally unworkable and overcomplicated in my opinion and I hate the idea of pinning to win in sub grappling.
Some really good ideas in those rules but I agree the idea of a pin winning a match doesn't fit in submission wrestling. Also for purple and up and the nogi equivalent get rid of tech falls. They are ok for beginners and to keep tournaments running but again this is submission wrestling. In my over 10 years of competing and refereeing I have seem a lot of matches where one competitor gets down big on points early but hits a late sub to win. Give them the chance to win by submission.
I like the idea of being able to get additional points for pinning for an extended period as this shows technical skill and dominance. However, like in Judo, there's little reward in going for a risky sub if I could just hold you in side mount or north south for 20 sec or a minute etc.
I also like that you award big points for big throws, which will encourage guys to work on their standup. In addition, it's good that you allow slamming for brown and black belts, but I'd like to see what the rate of injury is before I go along wiht it. Does anyone have any insight on what type of injuries we would see aside from knock-outs?
I don't think you rules are overly complicated. Nice effort in putting them down on paper.
DBL post
I certainly don't profess to be an expert at professional sports, but from what I've seen, it's the organization that comes before the rules. The rules don't dictate the organizations; it's the other way around, so if your goal is to build sub grappling into a professional American sport, you're attacking it from the wrong direction.
PS a pin is a stall, period. This is a topic that's already been discussed to death here. There are already other sports for that.
I almost stopped reading after seeint the rule about splitting matches into rounds...
Overall I think rules should do 3 things BEFORE thinking about how exciting it is to watch:
1) Fighter safety
2) Changing the dynamics of a "real" fight as little as possible, meaning trying to be realistic WITHIN the given limitations (no striking etc...)
3) Implementing rules that help distinguish the sport from other grappling arts, thus providing an incentive to train and specialize inthose aspects
I think your rule set fails on at least 2 points, maybe 3.
1) Slamming and high amplitude throws are encouraged, as well as standing up being awarded points. So slamming someone as hard as possible and then standing up to do the same again becomes encouraged. While realistic, I am not a big fan of that. In an environment where not everyone trains standup extensively, this leads to more injuries.
2) I think the rules are overcomplicated and pinning alone makes into more of a game, instead of a fight, than it already is.
3) Allowing people to pull guard, as much as it is hated on, has made the BJJ guard what it is today in competition. Full stop.
Your rules do nothing but dilute the focus, which makes individual sports great (Judo and BJJ especially)
So to me they don't make much sense, sorry.
Awesome Input,
Serafin I appreciate the experience that makes sense.
Slamming is only allowed at brown and black belt. Maybe it should just be at black belt? I don't know? I defined the rule as slamming where the back must hit first otherwise there is a DQ. I understand safety must come first, but we also practice martial arts and the rule is for the highest level only.
I think sport grappling already is more of a game with 9 minutes of jockying for position one sweep or pass and a decision.
No time limit sub only is the only way not to make it a game, but I don't think large tournaments could be thrown with those rules.
I don't think there is a huge downside to pulling guard, just realistic. You have 3 seconds to score when you pull maybe the time should be longer? I think the great guard players would have no problem. I saw several guard pullers at the usa wrestling grappling tournament. I believe their rule is no negative point until your shoulders touch.
Yeah I agree -1 for guard pulling is ok, and I am a guard player. If you want to play guard you can but you realize going to your back puts you at a disadvantage and forces you to work to attack which is fine with me.
Alright here goes rules version 2:
First a couple thoughts. I think the true point of Jiu Jitsu by the way is self-defense, but that does not necessarily mean submitting your opponent. I had one of my best friends get in a fight recently choke one guy out only to have him fall on top trapping my friend followed by a violent boot stomping to the dome. So there is a lot more too this s**t besides the submission and those skills should be valued in competition. That is why we see black belts (not usually the world class ones although they are often guilty of it too) transition over to mma and get dominated by a wrestler. Now I understand that fighting is different many of them go into fight or flight and just attack, but because they attack the sub first, and wrestling does a significantly better job teaching positioning the wrestler never gets in significant danger because he doesn't go down that road. These are blackbelts with no concept of positioning. I think our tournaments need a revamp on the concept of positioning and that means rules that teach and reinforce the basic concept to me. Look at Roger, that guy understands positioning.
Now the pin thing I agree with you guys now no point, I agree that we need to stay true to Jiu Jitsu and don't need to make every grappling art happy. The overall point that I was trying to make is what I said above.
So here is a simplified update to the rules, and trust me I am sure I have a lot more drafts to go.
Throw/Takedown to dominant position: 3 points
to guard : 2 points
Penalty for Pulling Guard : 1 point
Guard Pass :2 points
Pin (5 seconds) :2 points
Back Control no hooks :2 points
Ride Time (5 seconds) :2 points
Exchanging Dominant Position :1 Point
Attacking Advantage :1 point
(Not enough time for Points)
Sweep to Guard :2 Points
Sweep to Dominant Position :3 points
Reversal :1 point
Escape :1 point
Strong Sub :3 points
I replied on the other page but...
I disagree with the idea that grappling sports need to mimic a "real fight". Why can't we just let them be grappling sports? We already know what real sport fighting looks like, and that is MMA. You can even go more hardcore and do limited rules vale tudo. If you want to really prepare for the street, just do that.
Practicing bjj will MAY give you an edge in a fight. but that has more to do with you, and the circumstances you find yourself in, rather than the rules you compete under for fun on the weekends.
The Mad Lurker - Totally unworkable and overcomplicated in my opinion and I hate the idea of pinning to win in sub grappling.+1
lazlo - I replied on the other page but...Well, constantly implementing rules is how other Martial Arts have been watered down over the years.. Sport Karate, Judo, etc etc.. After a while it looks nothing like it's original art and is nowhere near as effective either which is why GJJ was a godsend for many people in the 90's.....
I disagree with the idea that grappling sports need to mimic a "real fight". Why can't we just let them be grappling sports? We already know what real sport fighting looks like, and that is MMA. You can even go more hardcore and do limited rules vale tudo. If you want to really prepare for the street, just do that.
Practicing bjj will MAY give you an edge in a fight. but that has more to do with you, and the circumstances you find yourself in, rather than the rules you compete under for fun on the weekends.
I think that is because they spent time training both sport and self defense.
Agree with RobbieH. If you don't care that it mimics a real fight, then you can go play racketball on the weekends. Doesn't matter what you do on the weekends then. Whether you care about learning to defend yourself or not, that's the whole point of jiu-jitsu. It gives you two things at once, good exercise AND effective fighting skills. If you take away the 2nd one, then you've lost anything significantly different than any other sport.
I think you really can't penalize guard pulling though. The major example is one that is seen all the time in competition. You get a great wrestler with no submission or jiu-jitsu skills. He gets his takedown points and then bear hugs his opponent for 5 minutes untilt he match is over. If you're not also a tremendous wrestler, your only viable strategy is to pull guard and deny him his 2 points. This forces him to actually take part in the match, and gives you a chance to submit or score on him.
Penalizing guard pulling would just give wrestlers a license to steal basically. Just stall and not actually participate in the match.
Also, escape points and riding time have no place in jiu-jitsu. Especially where most of the scores are only 2 or 3 points. You could dominate someone, but they keep escaping eventually and somehow they're still in the match?
Riding time is just giving points for stalling? You should have to move forward if anything else. Anything else is just going to slow the match down even more.
Alright ill try to explaing a little better and see if you still don't like the rules.
On the guard pulling penalty. Although Guard is still a neutral positiong the top man is still considered dominant. Even in many sub grappling tournaments some tie breaking rules state that the top man wins. Now if we all want to discount that with a decent arguement then I may agree. Here is my basic arguement. I think that guys should have some takedowns. I think staying true to self defense, as you wished for, people need to be able to execute takedowns. Pulling guard does not promote self defense very well.
The rules that I have stick to the basic model of self defense within jiu jitsu so if you could explain to me how im pulling away from self defense i'd appreciate it.
Riding time is just a word, I am using it for once you get a hook in. I think that you should score for one hook in and upper body control, body lock or both hooks. All defined as a type of ride, so maybe I should just put ride instead of ride time.
Escape points work on basic human psychology. In order to help people get better faster lay out where they are supposed to go for them with a reward system. I think anything where you initiated a positive exchange of position for yourself should be rewarded.
"Escape points work on basic human psychology. In order to help people get better faster lay out where they are supposed to go for them with a reward system. I think anything where you initiated a positive exchange of position for yourself should be rewarded."
I think this part is redundant. Under current rules, you can only score from positive positions. So you if you want to score, you need to escape first before you can score. So you really don't need escape points to reward that behavior. It's already being done. It seems just like unnecessary complication to the rules and extra points to keep track of.
On the question of self defense. I believe everyone should have takedowns too, but no matter how hard some people train, they're not going to be able to take down a D1 wrestler. So self defense situation or not, that just isn't happening. Also, for people who are just really good at their guard, like say Nogueira, he's at no disadvantage when he pulls guard in mma. On smaller scales of skill, this happens in grappling tournaments all the time as well. You can just default points to the wrestler, just because no one can take him down. He will stall the match out and ruin anything you're trying to accomplish with your point system.