Who was the King of Old School MMA?

Underground
41

I'd probably try and choose a fighter before UFC 8 and UU96.

Don Frye came onto the scene and cleared house by that time. He was arguably the most skillful fighyer in the UFC.

About three years up to UFC 8 from the beginning of the UFC and I think fighters were beginning to catch on to this new kind of fighting (in the States with UFC at least), and we started to see better trained athletes entering within a couple of years, Ruas is a great example - big, skilled, patient, stand up, submissions.

Therefore, we need to go back as far as possible. 

We had events like Pancrase, which, yes, does bring up the discussion of worked fights.

However, Pancrase had the likes of Ken and Frank, and also Bas Rutten. All of which made their name in the UFC.

Royce Gracie is the one name that is impossible not to mention when discussing early fight events, and of course the UFC.

Royce was there in its infancy and dominated and fought as an underdog in these NHB tournaments.

Apart from fish hooking and eye gouging, it really was NHB.

Several things make Royce my candidate:

Reigning champion in the infancy of the UFC, a fight event that brought NHB to the masses;

Fought and beat much bigger opponents;

From a history of a fighting family;

Fought NHB in what became known as the challenge matches on Gracies in Action.

So, he's my vote.

To quote Rich G-Man Goins:

"Royce Gracie...Gracie"

42

“Overeem fought in1997”

You may be thinking of Valentine Overeem, Alistair’s older brother.

43

“We had events like Pancrase, which, yes, does bring up the discussion of worked fights.”

I don’t think there were that many works in Pancrase.

Also, some of what people call works in Pancrase were not really works, they were just matches where there was a gentlemans agreement to not throw strikes while on the ground.

44

ttt

45

ttt

46

Kazushi Sakuraba started fighting in the 1990’s, so I suppose he could qualify as an Old School fighter.

47

Definitely Royce, and Ken not to far under him. I know Royce was selected by the Gracie family to show Gracie JJ was the superior single martial art because of his smaller and weaker looking stature, but he still went out there and got it done against much bigger, stronger, and scarier guys.

Unlike Royce, Ken looked the part, talked the talk and walked the walk. Even so, Royce made quick work of him. Under Ken, I’d have to list Bas Rutten as 3rd. For some reason, Ken had Bas’s number everytime they fought.

48
Pain Headquarters - 

Definitely Royce, and Ken not to far under him. I know Royce was selected by the Gracie family to show Gracie JJ was the superior single martial art because of his smaller and weaker looking stature, but he still went out there and got it done against much bigger, stronger, and scarier guys.

Unlike Royce, Ken looked the part, talked the talk and walked the walk. Even so, Royce made quick work of him. Under Ken, I’d have to list Bas Rutten as 3rd. For some reason, Ken had Bas’s number everytime they fought.

Bad matchup for Bas.

I’d say that after the second fight with Royce, followed by subbing Severn – Ken was top dog until he went to WWF.

49

" I know Royce was selected by the Gracie family to show Gracie JJ was the superior single martial art because of his smaller and weaker looking stature,"

Royce is actually somewhat tall at 6’1", but yeah, he had a thinner build and did not look like a bulked up muscular guy.

50

rickson

51

“rickson”

My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.

I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.

52
chief123 - 
Erik Apple - you would have to give a specific year to get a good answer

This. SEG UFC? Pride? Early Fertitta UFC? when does Old School start and end? 

Vovchachin would have murdered anyone in early UFC, hell he beat Mark Kerr. 

Rickson is not in the discussion, never beat anyone of note. Igor had more fights by 21 than Rickson had in his entire career. And he fought and beat opponents of much higher caliber. Cro Cop pretty much stopped the Vovchanchin  career train with his left leg though. 

And his ko gif of Fransisco Bueno is still one of the best ever. 

Anyone else remember how Grappling Magazine always would mention Bueno and saying other fighters were ducking him?

Ruas was really the first well rounded guy in MMA I remember. 

When he won at UFC 7, he had two submission wins and a TKO. Although Remco counted as a submission, he tapped once Ruas got the mount

53
theshooter - "rickson"

My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.

I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.

I think Igor would have KOd Rickson badly.

Igor is exactly the kind of fighter where Rickson’s head-up-hands-down approach would have gotten him in trouble.

I’m a fan of Rickson, and I appreciate both his skill, and the mental aspects he brought to training.

But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki – and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai.

I don’t think Rickson beats killers like Igor.

Sakuraba is the one I really wanted to see.

54

“But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki – and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai.”

Masakatsu Funaki was actually younger than Rickson, but I think Funaki’s body was more broken down. Funaki started as a pro wrestler at the age of 16. So he was taking bumps on the pro wrestling circuit for years before he started fighting in MMA. He also had a lot more MMA fights prior to fighting Rickson, as compared to the number of fights Rickson had, and he fought higher caliber competition in MMA than Rickson.

Yuki Nakai was a good fighter, but he was much smaller than Rickson, and by the time they fought in Vale Tudo Japan, Nakai was worn out by having to go through two much larger opponents, and he had his eyes gouged by Gerard Gordeau, and ended up going blind in one eye because of it. It is a wonder that Nakai even came out and fought Rickson that night. I don’t think that would even happen in today’s MMA.

55
onepunchJD -
theshooter - "rickson"

My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.

I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.

I think Igor would have KOd Rickson badly.

Igor is exactly the kind of fighter where Rickson’s head-up-hands-down approach would have gotten him in trouble.

I’m a fan of Rickson, and I appreciate both his skill, and the mental aspects he brought to training.

But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki – and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai.

I don’t think Rickson beats killers like Igor.

Sakuraba is the one I really wanted to see.

Rickson leading with his chin would have produced a highlight to surpass bueno’s vs Igor

56
theshooter - "But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki -- and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai."

Masakatsu Funaki was actually younger than Rickson, but I think Funaki’s body was more broken down. Funaki started as a pro wrestler at the age of 16. So he was taking bumps on the pro wrestling circuit for years before he started fighting in MMA. He also had a lot more MMA fights prior to fighting Rickson, as compared to the number of fights Rickson had, and he fought higher caliber competition in MMA than Rickson.

Yuki Nakai was a good fighter, but he was much smaller than Rickson, and by the time they fought in Vale Tudo Japan, Nakai was worn out by having to go through two much larger opponents, and he had his eyes gouged by Gerard Gordeau, and ended up going blind in one eye because of it. It is a wonder that Nakai even came out and fought Rickson that night. I don’t think that would even happen in today’s MMA.

Yep.

Funaki was visibly smaller and softer vs Rickson.

IIRC he announced his retirement after that fight.

He came back years later.

As far as Nakai…

I don’t think he beats Rickson fresh.

But the toughness he displayed is legendary – so I always give him an honorable mention.

That shit was like a movie.

57
de braco - 
onepunchJD -
theshooter - "rickson"

My problem with giving this the King of Old School MMA title to Rickson is that he fought pretty weak competition in MMA. I understand that he won a bunch of grappling matches, and some street fights and dojo challenges, but even Helio Gracie said his 400-0 record was exaggerated.

I wonder how he would have done against Igor Vovchanchyn? Igor and Rickson were close in height (Igor might be slightly shorter than Rickson, not sure, but they are close), but Igor was a bulkier guy, although some of that was fat. I think Igor could have given Rickson some serious problems.

I think Igor would have KOd Rickson badly.

Igor is exactly the kind of fighter where Rickson’s head-up-hands-down approach would have gotten him in trouble.

I’m a fan of Rickson, and I appreciate both his skill, and the mental aspects he brought to training.

But his one solid MMA win was a past-his-prime Funaki – and I say that with all due hespect to Yuki Nakai.

I don’t think Rickson beats killers like Igor.

Sakuraba is the one I really wanted to see.

Rickson leading with his chin would have produced a highlight to surpass bueno’s vs Igor

Agreed.

58

Frank Shamrock vs Kazushi Sakuraba could count as an Old School fight since they both started in the 1990’s.

59

ttt

60
theshooter - "It's a shame he was kind of already on the decline when he debuted in Pride and really stepped up in competition."

Igor did pretty well in PRIDE for awhile. He may well have beaten Mark Coleman in the PRIDE Grand Prix if not for the fact that Igor had two fights earlier that night, against Gary Goodridge and Kazushi Sakuraba, while Coleman fought Akira Shoji, but then basically got a bye in the 2nd round when Kazuyuki Fujita came in and immediately had the towel thrown in before he and Coleman even started fighting, due to Fujita having been worn out from his victory over Mark Kerr.

It is too bad that we never got to see Mark Coleman against a fresh Kazuyuki Fujita. That could have been a good fight.

More like thanks/a favor for working the fight against Takada. Fujita could have easily pulled out backstage and an alternate would have jumped in. Starting the fight with a towel throw was essentially a work/throwing the fight to Coleman. It was bullshit. It would be illegal anywhere with a legitimate AC and not a Yakuza/Pro wrestling production.