Getting into debates about and strengths Vs weaknesses is attractive but in this case I think there's simply a much simpler answer. Numbers.
I'm in the UK, the home of CACC and I've looked multiple times over the years and there's no one teaching it remotely close to me. But I can walk out my front door and join a BJJ gym 5 minutes walk from here, and judo and MMA gyms are similarly close and accessible. I don't doubt that it's a similar story in most places in the world.
I'm not looking to debate just looking for your educated opinion. You might now of someone I have never herd of and I can learn something by looking hi up.
Who in your opinion was the best guard player out of any catch wrestler ever pre UFC 1? How would you rate the guard play of them compared to how catch wrestlers like Barnett handle the guard now? Thanks for your opinion.
I do see a lot of "catch" in mma. I see a lot of "catch" in sub grappling also. There is a lot of good stuff from catch that is great for grappling. The biggest problem that I see for catch is the lack of guard. I believe that a good guard will kill pure catch guys of the past. Todays great catch guys like Eric Paulson benefitted tremendously when the Gracies introducdd bjj to them and his student Josh Barnett did also. Eric Paulson imo has a great grappling styIe because he has blended catch with bjj.
I believe that catch without bjj is inferior because the guard is such an important position in grappling. In order to be a great grappler you have to have a great guard imo and great guard defense because no matter how good of a wrestler you are you will not be complete without a guard game both top and bottom. There will be a Gordon Ryan out there who can take you down or sweep you and turtling against him is the worst idea you could have or he can submit you from his guard.
Why is the blended styIe of grappling today mostly recognized from the general public as bjj? I think this again is because of the addition of guard play. The guard is the heart and soul of jiu-jitsu and it is prevelant in grappling blended grappling competitions. I have heard catch guys say the "scissor position" has been around forever and it is the same as the guard. They will show you old footage of a catch match where one guy has a closed guard/scissor position but in all practical purposes he is not playing guard. In the videos I have seen the bottom guy has his legs wrapped around his opponent but he is also just holding his opponent while he is also up on his elbows to "avoid the pin". There is no offense and as you can guess the position did not last long. Having rules that allow you to win by "pinning" someone in guard is not good imo. A well developed grappler needs a good guard also no matter how good his top game is. every ADCC competitor has a guard that would demolish catch guys pre UFC 1 imo and that includes Sakaraba. I think Sakaraba is another one who benefitted from learning from the early UFC's and he is another one who has a great grappling that is blended but considered "catch."
Interesting that you think that.
Catch has plenty of bottom game.
Unlike BJJ, the focus is to regain top position. i.e. to WRESTLE out from under and into hooks.
The wrestling is the bottom game. And there are numerous finishes that you wrestle into. That is, the finish is part of the reversal. Not two separate things. Not wrestling to the top and than go for the hook. You wrestle to the top and the sub is a consequense of the wrestling. That act of getting to top is where the sub is.
I could be wrong but I think catch has evolved tremedously after the impact UFC 1 made on the martial arts community. Either a catch guy added the guard more into their game like Hume and Paulson or a catch guy still suffers from an incomplete game imo because a bottom game of reversals and getting to your knees is not enough to fight a Demian Maia or a Gordon Ryan imo. You have to know and understand the guard to fight a top bjj guy.
Like I wrote earlier, I changed Catch to suit me. There are many things that in MMA or a real fight with striking that would put you in danger. No biggy.
I never got caught up in the whole authentic Catch BS, that it had to have pins,etc.
Who cares about pins, unless you are wrestling under rules where pins are legal.
All take from each other. Years ago in bjj all I heard about it flowing & transitions & now I hear more about how to be heavy and stay on top & guys calling bjj the art or pressure. Most the bjj blackbelts I know are super strong & probably roll more like Karl Gotch than Royce Gracie.
Half the bjjers I know roll with what I would call catch strategy even tho they probably don’t know what catch is
I do see a lot of "catch" in mma. I see a lot of "catch" in sub grappling also. There is a lot of good stuff from catch that is great for grappling. The biggest problem that I see for catch is the lack of guard. I believe that a good guard will kill pure catch guys of the past. Todays great catch guys like Eric Paulson benefitted tremendously when the Gracies introducdd bjj to them and his student Josh Barnett did also. Eric Paulson imo has a great grappling styIe because he has blended catch with bjj.
I believe that catch without bjj is inferior because the guard is such an important position in grappling. In order to be a great grappler you have to have a great guard imo and great guard defense because no matter how good of a wrestler you are you will not be complete without a guard game both top and bottom. There will be a Gordon Ryan out there who can take you down or sweep you and turtling against him is the worst idea you could have or he can submit you from his guard.
Why is the blended styIe of grappling today mostly recognized from the general public as bjj? I think this again is because of the addition of guard play. The guard is the heart and soul of jiu-jitsu and it is prevelant in grappling blended grappling competitions. I have heard catch guys say the "scissor position" has been around forever and it is the same as the guard. They will show you old footage of a catch match where one guy has a closed guard/scissor position but in all practical purposes he is not playing guard. In the videos I have seen the bottom guy has his legs wrapped around his opponent but he is also just holding his opponent while he is also up on his elbows to "avoid the pin". There is no offense and as you can guess the position did not last long. Having rules that allow you to win by "pinning" someone in guard is not good imo. A well developed grappler needs a good guard also no matter how good his top game is. every ADCC competitor has a guard that would demolish catch guys pre UFC 1 imo and that includes Sakaraba. I think Sakaraba is another one who benefitted from learning from the early UFC's and he is another one who has a great grappling that is blended but considered "catch."
Interesting that you think that.
Catch has plenty of bottom game.
Unlike BJJ, the focus is to regain top position. i.e. to WRESTLE out from under and into hooks.
The wrestling is the bottom game. And there are numerous finishes that you wrestle into. That is, the finish is part of the reversal. Not two separate things. Not wrestling to the top and than go for the hook. You wrestle to the top and the sub is a consequense of the wrestling. That act of getting to top is where the sub is.
I could be wrong but I think catch has evolved tremedously after the impact UFC 1 made on the martial arts community. Either a catch guy added the guard more into their game like Hume and Paulson or a catch guy still suffers from an incomplete game imo because a bottom game of reversals and getting to your knees is not enough to fight a Demian Maia or a Gordon Ryan imo. You have to know and understand the guard to fight a top bjj guy.
Yeah yeah.. the Gracies also invented breathing and shoes.. gotcha.
I had to look up what the diffence between Catch wrestling was and Greco-Roman.
One of the main differences between these two wrestling is that Greco-Roman forbids any holds below the waist, but free wrestling allows you to use your legs as both defensive and offensive weapons. You can also use a double leg or single leg takedown to pin your opponent to the mat.?
When I learned 20 or so catch techniques while I was doing bjj, my bjj went through the roof because there were a ton of submissions from the same position that were simpler and never taught in bjj. It's not the same at all.
Came from wrestling and used this for my entire MMA and grappling career when having someone’s back and/or if they play turtle b/c I always like side control better. It’s just a cross face with a near ankle lift, but notice the direction the ankle is tossed and that your hips must follow and stay tight.
You can also reach under the near arm and grab the far arm above the elbow and do the same thing. These are just middle school level wrestling moves that work really well b/c many grapplers are more cooperative when you take them towards their back cause they think they can pull guard and not have taking their back.
