Hong Kong Vs Thailand 1974

This was the third time for the kung pows, the hong kong team and the PRC team had both been beaten into bolivia by the thais and kyokushin in 73'. These beatings were the birth of modern san shou/sanda, which is mostly comprised of kyokushin/muay thai/sambo/greco.

1974-6-1 Black belt.

HONG KONG KUNG-FU EXPONENTS, still nursing their wounded pride after the humiliation suffered at the hands of muay thai fighters late in 1973, had come back to Bangkok to challenge the Thais in a return match one month later. Two of their brothers had been knocked out in'the first round by Thai boxers, and now they would have their revenge.

Wai Chin, the Hong Kong team manager, explained that his men had been at a disadvantage in the first encounter, having been forced to wear gloves and fight according to Thai rules. "Our trained hands are our most effective weapon," Wai Chin told reporters. "We have to insist on a bare-handed fight this time." He also felt that his fighters had closely studied muay thai techniques and were well prepared. "We will have our revenge, all right," he said confidently.

Muay thai fighters do not forge their hands but instead wear heavy bandages under their gloves. In a special meeting prior to the celebrated rematch, Thai officials discussed the Chinese proposal and agreed that each contestant should fight according to his own style. The following rules were laid down for the contest and were agreed to by both parties:

1) Each bout would consist of five three-minute rounds with two-minute intervals.

2) Each bout would be judged by a referee and two side judges and scored according to the muay thai system.

3) The only illegal tactics would be biting; finger stabs to eyes, ears and nostrils; scratching; and attacking a downed opponent.

Said Col. Suthi Promjairak, chairman of Lumpini Boxing Stadium's technical committee, "We want to keep this contest under control. We are sportsmen, not animals.**

The "barehand" decision caused some concern among the Thai boxers, which in turn promoted the promoter, Col. Thongterm Pobsook, deputy director of Lumpini Stadium, to announce that any Thai fighter found clowning in the ring, or not fighting to full ability, would be banned from his stadium for life.

Fifteen thousand fans packed the huge Hua Mark Stadium (an affiliate facility used by the Lumpini organization) on the outskirts of Bangkok on fight night. An unusually large contingent of Chinese had come to watch the contest, some of them excitedly shouting, "Bruce Lee, Bruce Lee!** and, "Enter, you dragons!"

An exhibition match of three rounds by two members of the kung-fu team proved unpopular. Although the bout was of great interest to martial arts buffs, the bulk of the crowd had come to see blood.

There was absolute silence in the stadium when the first two contestants entered the ring to begin the kung-fu vs. kick-boxing matches. Thai flyweight Krengprinoi Sawsakyon, 103 pounds, squared off against Chen Yew-kuang of Hong Kong, 105 pounds. The Thai, at first apprehensive of his opponent's bare fingers, moved cautiously, attacking only with a few long-range kicks. The Chinese, fast enough to dodge the Thai*s initial techniques, countered with fast punches, some of them landing directly in Krengprinoi*s face. But suddenly the Thai threw a high round kick to the face, followed by a second to the neck, flooring the kung-fu man. Clearly shaken, the Hong Kong fighter struggled to his feet and then moved straight into a powerful Krengprinoi punch that was good enough for a count of 10. Time of knockout: 1 minute, 10 seconds.

In the second bout, Samarn Lukpanpo, former Thai flyweight champion, 114 pounds, met Hong Kong's Tang Li-yuan, who weighed in at 111 pounds. Samarn missed with a few round kicks and traded punches at close quarters before landing a kick on the neck that sent the Chinese reeling into the ropes. Tang came back immediately with a series of knife-hand attacks to the Thai's body but got trapped in a corner. The Thai let fly with a barrage of elbow and knee techniques, then used his gloves to grab the kung-fu man's head and pull it down, smashing a knee into Tang's face. Tang, bleeding heavily, picked himself up to continue the fight but gave up when he noticed the blood. Time: 2 minutes, 20 seconds.

In the third fight, Thai flyweight Rerngsak Pornthawee, 114 pounds, was matched against 115-pound Ou Joon-hai of the kung-fu team. Ou, obviously nervous after seeing the quick disposal of his two mates, started running around the ring in an attempt to stay out of the Thai's reach. But Rerngsak caught him with a kick to the leg that sent him sprawling flat on his face. After a count of eight, the kung-fu fighter refused to continue the fight. He was booed off the stage. Time: 1 minute, 22 seconds.

Fight No. 4 was the main event and also the shortest one. Thai bantamweight Nongkai Sawprasorn, 119 pounds, made quick work of Hong Kong's Teng Oui-hong, 122 pounds. Here was a good example of the value, or lack of it, of showy demonstration techniques in actual combat. The kung-fu artist, attacking with a jump kick, was dodged by the Thai, who with surprising speed landed a powerful round kick in the Chinese's kidney region, virtually stopping him in mid-air. Teng dropped to the canvas like a sack of rice. The fight had lasted a full 20 seconds. The kung-fu artist was carried from the ring on a stretcher.

ONE MORE TIME:

The fifth and final bout pitted Thai flyweight Payon Sermviset, 110 pounds, against Loo Ui-liang from Hong Kong, 108 pounds. In some very fast and powerful hand action, Loo drove the Thai to the ropes, and Payon had to use some vicious elbow work to get out of trouble. The Thai then took the initiative and landed some kicks to the Chinese's legs before a kick to the head sent the kung-fu man to the floor. Payon waited for Loo to get up, then attacked again with a high kick to the Hong Kong fighter's neck. Loo fell flat on his face and stayed there for quite a bit longer than it takes to count to 10. Time: 1 minute, 10 seconds.

In five matches, the muay thai fighters had knocked out their kung-fu opponents in the first round. Total action in the ring amounted to barely six minutes. Shouts from the Chinese spectators of "cruelty," "torture," "Barbarians" were answered with boos from the Thai spectators. In an effort to calm the crowd, Col. Thongterm explained over the public address system that the Chinese had insisted on the revenge match and had been given the chance to use their bare hands.

The contest marked the fourth (at least as far as the records show) confrontation between muay thai and kung-fu. In 1921, a famous Chinese fighter, Tse Shang, who was reputed to have a high control of chi (ki) challenged a Thai boxer named Yang Hantalay. Still-living eye witnesses report that it was the most brutal fight they have ever seen. It lasted only three minutes and ended in Tse Shang's spending months under medical care. Then, in 1958, a team of Chinese tai kek fighters was also beaten by Thai boxers, all fights ending in first-round knockouts, the same fate suffered by the two kung-fu experts late last year. None of the fighters involved in the 1973 bouts appeared in the '74 rematch.

"I've had enough," said the Hong Kong team manager, Wai Chin, before leaving the stadium after the most recent contest. "Never again. Muay thai is too dangerous to be a sport."

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incredibly, these tactics failed.

Great article. AFAIK the only fighting group that did any good against the Thais were Kyokushin fighters. I could be wrong though.

tma’s have plenty of documented history getting exposed well before the ufc,

from thai’s to judoka, wrestlers and boxers, all complete and utter ownage

Ninjas and Dim Mak are more fun though, Santa Claus for adults

Later

The problem with Chinese TMA is like Chinese Traditional Medicine.

Some stuff might work but most of it just superstition and hocus pocus with very little incentive to change because that would be an insult to the Chinese civilization and culture.

Just look at the challenge matches that happen in China against modern MMA guys. The TMA guys get destroyed and the MMA guys are in danger of getting arrested by the government or beaten by angry mobs for “insulting” the Chinese people.

oh that is how the san shou was born. i thought san shou came from wu shu but instead of dancing style, it was fighting style.

Great thread!

pcuzz - Great article. AFAIK the only fighting group that did any good against the Thais were Kyokushin fighters. I could be wrong though.

 Kyokushin won two out of three at Lumpinee in 1964. The loser was Kurosaki, Jon Blumings sensei, who would go on to form Meijiro Gym in Japan, and in turn, Dutch Kickboxing.

TTT 

stevosmith - oh that is how the san shou was born. i thought san shou came from wu shu but instead of dancing style, it was fighting style.

Yupt,and like de braco said,they got a lot from their co-military training with then USSR.old sanda training manuals have drawings of people in the kurtka

de braco - 
pcuzz - Great article. AFAIK the only fighting group that did any good against the Thais were Kyokushin fighters. I could be wrong though.

 Kyokushin won two out of three at Lumpinee in 1964. The loser was Kurosaki, Jon Blumings sensei, who would go on to form Meijiro Gym in Japan, and in turn, Dutch Kickboxing.

Yawn, not this again. Firstly it wasn’t Lumpinee, it was a local samui show and the Kyokoshin guys fought some locals.

Of course they churned the hype machine hard and it became they beat Thailands best. They literally wouldn’t make it to top 20 in their weight, as few outsiders actually ever have - due to the talent pool, ruleset that no one except thai’s really understand and the clinching/elbows.

The outsiders who got belts are usually in weak divisions (heavy ones with no talent pool) or in backup stadiums. If you think this is bs, take the effectiveness of MT out of the question, you don’t know Thai national pride, they’d never let it happen.

Now I have HUGE respect for Meijiro, Kyokoshin, Blumings Sensei etc, so it’s no disrespect there and Kyukoshin and its offshoots are total badasses.

pcuzz - Great article. AFAIK the only fighting group that did any good against the Thais were Kyokushin fighters. I could be wrong though.
Didn't the choy lay fut (not sure of the spelling) Kung fu guys have some sort of success against Thai boxers?
tryonmytoupee - 
pcuzz - Great article. AFAIK the only fighting group that did any good against the Thais were Kyokushin fighters. I could be wrong though.
Didn't the choy lay fut (not sure of the spelling) Kung fu guys have some sort of success against Thai boxers?
Jesus no.  
 
There actually was one guy, Tan Guancheng“ The Warrior Sage of Penang”, but he dislocated one of the thai's shoulders with a throw.

 

Oh for sure, this is in reference to the 70’s matches. Nowadays there is so much information available, it’s a totally different story, not surprised some Kung Fu guys can compete. I guess it’s the equivalent of a Wing Chun dude winning MMA now and talking about UFC 1 in 1993; the reality it wasn’t that open minded back then.

I lived and trained at one of the muay thai camps in southern Thailand the last 2 months. We have a lumpini champ and top 10 lumpini and rajadamern fighters. Crazy thing is I've never seen them spar like in the western mt gyms. They Only do clinch sparring. Lots of it. Their balance is sick. Seen them throw around heavier elite farang fighters like it was nothing. 

Liam VT1 _ LEMon -
de braco - 
pcuzz - Great article. AFAIK the only fighting group that did any good against the Thais were Kyokushin fighters. I could be wrong though.

 Kyokushin won two out of three at Lumpinee in 1964. The loser was Kurosaki, Jon Blumings sensei, who would go on to form Meijiro Gym in Japan, and in turn, Dutch Kickboxing.

Yawn, not this again. Firstly it wasn’t Lumpinee, it was a local samui show and the Kyokoshin guys fought some locals.

Of course they churned the hype machine hard and it became they beat Thailands best. They literally wouldn’t make it to top 20 in their weight, as few outsiders actually ever have - due to the talent pool, ruleset that no one except thai’s really understand and the clinching/elbows.

The outsiders who got belts are usually in weak divisions (heavy ones with no talent pool) or in backup stadiums. If you think this is bs, take the effectiveness of MT out of the question, you don’t know Thai national pride, they’d never let it happen.

Now I have HUGE respect for Meijiro, Kyokoshin, Blumings Sensei etc, so it’s no disrespect there and Kyukoshin and its offshoots are total badasses.

YAWN.....

It was lumpinee. After that they only fought foreigners of different styles in "back up" stadiums, such as the one in the kung fu article above, that were affliated with the main stadiums so that kind of debacle could never happen again.

YAWN....

BTW, a couple of american service men stationed in thailand were training muay thai in the early 70's  that did pretty well, Ray Elder and Dale Kvalheim, Dale was ranked #10 at rajadamnern stadium at one point. Eder lost a decision to the #1 ranked rajadamnern stadium middleweight in 1970.

About Dale,

1974-7-1

THE CROWD WAS ROARING. In the main bout of a muay thai (kick-boxing) program, Dale Kvalheim of Wenatchee, Washington had just achieved the impossible. In five rounds of non-stop action, he had beaten the unofficial Northern Thailand lightweight champion, Apidet Lukmuang-nga, on points. It was the American's 22nd fight in a Thai ring and his 14th victory.

The 25-year-old soldier started muay thai training only 18 months ago, but is already known in the major boxing centers throughout Thailand. Unfortunately, he is stationed at an Army post near Udorn, the huge airbase in Northeast Thailand w which is the end of nowhere and far removed from the hub of Thailand's fighting activities.

When Kvalheim (his name is of Scandinavian origin) arrived in the land of kick-boxing almost two years ago, he didn't know a thing about the Thai national sport He was looking for a boxing gym (of the Golden Gloves variety) but couldn't find one, not even on the base. "Both my father and step-father were boxers and that's what I wanted to be as long as I can remember," says the blond soldier. "Back home, there was never an opportunity. Wenatchee-I think it has about 20,000 inhabitants-had only a small karate class at the YMCA. No other contact sport was available, and I wanted to box." j When Kvalheim saw his first muay thai bout, he decided to give the rugged sport a try. He found a trainer but, to his complete surprise, was rejected. "Foreigners are too soft at this game," he was told. 'They 'don't know our customs and rituals and don't like the discipline of our boxers." The young man from Wenatchee would not be denied, however. For two weeks, he went to see the boxing instructor every day, pestering him with repeated requests to be accepted as a student Finally, trainer Denapad Strithong gave in to the persistent American, a decision he has never regretted, and the GI became a kick-boxer.

The U.S. Army, not well liked by the local populus, was not at all happy about Kvalheim's off-duty activities. But when the specialist 5th class suddenly became popular, the Army changed its mind, realizing the public relations value of the young fighter. In a badly needed drive to improve the Army's image, military officials supported the soldier's efforts. "My captain is really very helpful," says Dale. *The army pays my expenses and a special insurance in case something happens in the ring. I think it comes from a promotional activities fund."

The insurance proved to be a wise move. During his 11th fight, which he lost, Kvalheim blocked a kick that broke his forearm, and he spent the next three months with his arm in a cast But otherwise, his eight losses haven't done him much harm. Just the usual bruises and swellings. Some of his winning bouts (seven by knockout) caused him a lot more pains, he says. "Man, some of these boys really hurt you, but I wouldn't think of giving up."

When Asked what the folks back home think of his new hobby, Dale ponders for a moment, then says, "They don't mention it in letters. I'm sure Dad likes it, but I also know that my mother would rather have me give it up."

HEAVY-HANDED YANK

In daily workouts, Kvalheim and his stablemates go through the usual one-to-two-hour routine: skipping rope, plus foot, knee, elbow, and fist practice on the bag, plus shadow boxing and sparring. In the ring, he prefers to m*e in close. "My legs are not too strong and my kicking techniques need a lot of improving," he says quite frankly and with some concern. "I like to punch my way in until I can use knees and elbows."

Dale is currently the only foreigner on the muay thai circuit and has a full schedule ahead of him. (Ray Edler, another well-known American muay thai fighter, recently retired.) He fights an average of twice a month for a rather high purse. Although he earned very little in his first few bouts, his fee jumped considerably after two victories in major Bangkok arenas. In October, 1973, he decisioned well-known Bangkok fighter Tahan Singbakit in one of the popular Thiemboon TV bouts and was chosen a month later for a supporting bout on the world championship card that featured Thailand's Chartchai against Hanagata of Japan.

Kvalheim took advantage of the opportunity and knocked out tough lightweight Gabi Lerkdecha in the fifth round. He now gets $250 for a fight, which, considering local economic conditions and the fact that the young American began fighting here less than two years ago, is exceptional.

Kvalheims latest fight and 14th win took place at the prestigious Provincial Boxing Stadium in Chiang Mai where he met Apidet Lukmuang-nga, a cagey veteran who for several years has reigned as the undisputed lightweight king of the North, although officially, there is no such title. Both weighed in at 130 pounds. When the fighters entered the ring, the betting odds were 5 to 4 against the GI. Slim and tall, he would hardly have a chance against the short and stocky local tough guy.

The two boxers performed the waikruh (paying respect to the teacher) and then started the rammuay, a kata-like dance in which the spirits are appeased. While Apidet, a bit cocky, gave an inferior rendition, Kvalheim did one of the most difficult forms with near-perfect precision. Only twice did he get slightly off balance-at exactly the same places in the rammuay where many a champion has stumbled. The, sold-out stadium broke into pandemonium, and the crowd American a standing ovation. The performance was particularly appreciated because foreigners tend to ridicule the dance,

even Thais of the Muslim faith reject it, claiming that it is against their religion. After the dance, the odds on the actual fight changed slightly in favor of the American. Anyone doing the rammuay that beautifully had to know something about muay thai.

The boost in morale was exactly what Kvalheim needed. He had come to Chiang Mai feeling a little apprehensive, because only two weeks before—during a visit by U.S. Ambassador .Kintner—violent anti-American demonstrations had rocked the city and the American flag was burned at the local university. But the cheering boxing fans restored the Yankee fighter's confidence.

After an even first round, Kvalheim fell behind on points in rounds two and three. The Thai displayed superior techniques, attacking mainly with high kicks followed by vicious elbow jabs to the American's face. Many of the clashes ended with both fighters going over the ropes, and only constant intervention by the referee prevented them from falling out of the ring altogether. In the fourth round, Dale took the initiative and weakened Apidet with non-stop combination punching. The American's powerful fists displayed a series of techniques seldom seen in a muay thai bout. By the end of the round, the boxers were even on points. The fifth and last round featured the American's superior stamina, and he had the Thai on the run most of the time. Despite Apidet's powerful elbow attacks, Kvalheim nevertheless kept attacking with punches and strikes and even an occasional kick. His tremendous fighting spirit won the round and match. The crowd, including those bettors who had lost their money agreed wholeheartedly with the decision and showed their approval with a long and uproarious applause.

The GI had won the fight mainly with his untiring drive and his complete disregard for pain. His fist work was certainly better than that of many of the Thai fighters, even the champs, who are generally weak in the punching department. Kvalheim's knee and elbow techniques were average, and his kicks still need a lot of improving, but for a relative novice he performed surprisingly well.

Said Dale's trainer after the fight, "He doesn't like roadwork, but I will have to insist on it. His legs must become stronger." Well, his military tour of duty doesn't end until mid-1975, giving him plenty of time to polish his techniques. By the time he is through, he will have something like SO fights behind him, which puts him in the veteran category with enough experience to make a name in the U.S. "I hear they have kick-boxing in America now," Kvalheim says enthusiasti-cally. "When I get back, I will certainly give it a try." His promoter, Yothin Lukmatuli, explains, "We are trying to follow the kick-boxing scene in the States, but detailed information is not easy to come by. Not even BLACK BELT tells us all we want to know. When Dale is finished here, hell have a lot of ring know-how, and we will move in and clean up in the U.S."

Dale Kvalheim himself is not that cocky. In fact, he appears very quiet and self-effacing. He has already learned one very valuable lesson—to always keep his cool. He does not lose his temper in the ring and never holds a grudge against his opponent after a fight, no matter what punishment he has taken. A great asset, indeed, particularly for an American in Thailand.

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You’re posting a lot of cool stuff sir, but it’s always odd to me when people believe the Kyokoshin went to Lumpinee and beat their best myth.

Dale was amazing, but he demonstrates how it’s almost impossible (at that time especially) to get Lumpinee top 10 ranked for a foreigner. Then the Japanese just walked into the stadium and fought their best?