and your diction is well put together. You are a smart person...
I would likely get a bad-ass headache, a busted-up face, or knocked completely out by a good boxer at the nearest gym....but if we both put on gloves that have open fingers (aforementioned 4oz gloves), and he fights me with vale tudo rules. Allow me to kick, elbow, clinch, takedown, and wrestle and attempt submissions... It's a whole different story.
But in that, my point is this:
a 1 trick pony isn't as good as a pony that does many things.
"a 1 trick pony isn't as good as a pony that does many things."
I think a person who is fantastaic at one thing has alot of advantages over someone who is average at alot of things.
Are you really good at tds or submission? (collegiate level wrestler/able to take a college level wrestler down or High purple/brown in BJJ), because if not those same 4 oz gloves are going to be a nightmare against that same boxer who tunes you up.
I dont mean to be confrontational, and I apologize for any insult I implied...I trained ALOT of Boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, and trained with a couple D-1 starting wrestlers. I am no particular ace at any of them, competent at three and I know how to shoot a basic double. But having trained with people who specialize in each of those it surprises me how little respect the average fan has for each, or the lack of understanding a person who trains casually at one place has.
Well I wouldn't exactly say that Boxing is a high Tier sport in regards to other sports as far as numbers go. Yes it has a pro-level with lots of cash for a grand total of about 40 guys worldwide...but undercard boxers make worse money than undercard guys in the UFC, Pride or K-1...or at best make the same. Why? Cuz Oscar is getting 20 mil and there ain't much left after that is there?
That and the level of Comp at the Amature level really isn't mass competition. Think about Wrestling. Just about every highschool in the country has a wrestling program. The great number of sporting colleges have a wrestling program. While boxing isn't rare, it's alot easier to find folks that have wrestled than it is who have boxed...low and high level alike.
Which would lead me to my arguement that money and huge numbers don't drive sports like this. A very, very rare few get into boxing and become great, but the talent pool isn't huge. That being said there are more than enough guys worldwide to make the sport competitive and more than enough of them train it as a full time job.
There comes a point that saturation of the sport and money don't play into how good of an athelete somebody is and has to do with how hard the individual is willing to push it.
yes and I DO respect your points too...
I don't think I made any "attacks" on you, just your viewpoints.
and I stand by my point that varied skills will most always be better (and in direct competition, it will BEAT) single discipline prowess.
Utilizing multiple skills AT THE SAME TIME, instead of dedicated skills in specific trials.
Let it be known, that I still believe gymnists that do ALL events, are the best athletes in my mind. (and I feel the men in STRONGMEN COMPETITIONS and IRONMAN are tops too).
"yes and I DO respect your points too... I don't think I made any "attacks" on you, just your viewpoints."
Well this down here looked like you spinning towards that personal direction.
"What about the rest of my points? Of all the stuff I typed, he replies "YOU YOU YOU need to go get punched" what a joker"
Several other sports have MUCH better raw athletes than MMA or boxing. But though being the best athlete is a shoe in to an NFL contract (doesnt guarante success there but does get you in the door) the fight game has more intangibles and is alot more technical skills based than Football.
The problem I always have when this debate comes up is alot of people have NO IDEA the level of technical ability it takes to look the way top end boxers do in the ring. So they say things like they dont have to be as good at many things, they couldnt beat blah blah, etc.
My personal solution is to train, not get with your buddies and "train", but really go to a place that teaches specialty skills (boxing gym, kickboxing gym, Bjj club etc) and learn them for what they are and what good they will do you.
Johnny you are striking me as the sort of guy who thinks he want to feel better about beating a boxer in a mma match, I am the type of person who tries to compete with decent (too old for good) boxers at boxing. If I get lit up by a decent club fighter, but always tell myself I could take him down, submit, kick, etc. does that make me better, or would investing alot of time and effort into actaully learning to box and deal with my shortcomings rather than trying to work around them make me better? Alot of people had rather work around rather than solve a shortcoming, easier on the ego and less painful shortrun, but sells any practitioner waaaaay short in the long run.
Honestly, I'd rather not fight ANYONE. Anywhere. and Im just a normal dude. Im a mudnamer on the UG for Christ's sakes!
hahahaha
But if a boxer beats me up in boxing, that's the way it should be! Im in his house, playing his game. If he trains with his hands to punch and perform boxing specific things, he had better be better than a non-specific boxer. But to me, what makes EMELIANENKO FEDOR (the best MMArtist), better athlete than KLITSCHKO/TARVER/JONES/TYSON (whomever you say from boxing), is the fact that EMELIANENKO doesn't just train 1 specific thing. He has spent 20/30 years on doing multiple things, not 20/30 years doing 1 thing.
I prefer to be able to beat some boxers at boxing and sme grapplers at grappling. Makes it alot easier to attack a weakness in any one's MMA game. Today alot of guys crosstrain too much, they dont have one skill set that is dominant. Fedor is great because he EXCELLED at one thing judo/Sambo and supplemented his standing game by training with high level pro kickboxers in Russia and Holland. Now he can spank Low end kickboxers standing, Submit high end kick boxers, submit low to mid level grapplers and beat the crap out of high end grapplers.
You say you are an average person. But if you train, you should train to be the best you can. Guys who REALLY crosstrain do so with established professional trainers/athletes in the sport they are cross training in. If more fans, casual people did this we would ahve alot fewer boxing vs mma vs wrestling vs blah threads.
Also alot of boxing fans have never set foot into a boxing gym. Many times they cant even talk technical boxing, the latest trend with growing MMA popularity seems MMA fans are getting more like average boxing fans. Dont train, dont know WTF they are talking about.
In short everyone train. Learn more, keep an open mind.
The guy who started the thread also posted this later on in it.
"I get so sick of hearing lame arguments of how boxers would supposedly fail in mma. You are basing your arguement on the performances of a couple of nobodies from the fight game that even the most hard core fight fan would be incapable of recognizing. You can't take the worst fighters in the world and base your opinion of how guys like Hopkins or Tarver (the best) would do in the octagon of shame. Also, you are assuming that guys like Hopkins or Tarver can't fight on the ground because they don't do it in the ring. Your a fucking idiot if you believe that. Remember the streets these warriors grew up in. Groundfighting and street fighting is second nature to them. They purpsoedly bring their game to Boxing Ring because Boxing is the most famous fighting sport in the world over. If you choose to make fighting your profession, Boxing is where the $ is.
"But if you can attack with punches, kicks, elbows, wrestling takedowns, and submission grappling and defend those same disciplines, you are a BETTER ATHLETE."
lmao at this retarded logic. Anyone can learn how to play ANY sport. You could take the biggest clutz in the world and teach him how to do the events of the decathalon, doesn't make him a better athlete than the 100m world champion dumbass. Just like Tim "I'm barely co-ordinated enough to tie my own shoe laces" Sylvia is not the same level of athlete as Wladimir Klitschk or Lennox Lewis, and none of them are on the level of a young Roy Jones or Mike Tyson.
Being a great athlete has NOTHING to do with your skill set, it has to do with your natural ability to pick up your chosen sport and excell at it. The sports with the bigger money and larger talent pools thus have the better athletes. Take Lennox Lewis and Tim Sylvia and train them at MMA at the same age and Lewis would fucking own him in every aspect of MMA, from wrestling, to boxing, to kickboxing, because Lewis is faster, infinitely more co-ordinated, and explosive. In short, he's a better athlete.
"Take Lennox Lewis and Tim Sylvia and train them at MMA at the same age and Lewis would fucking own him in every aspect of MMA, from wrestling, to boxing, to kickboxing, because Lewis is faster, infinitely more co-ordinated, and explosive. In short, he's a better athlete."
I dont fully agree, wrestling and some of the take down sports have some intangibles with balance and kinestetic awareness that you can't look at paper and see. We dont know what Lewis's wrestling would ever look like, I do agree he is a better athlete, but Sylvia is about the least natural athlete to rise to prominence in MMA.
No matter how good an athlets is you cant say if he did this or that he would succeed here, etc.
Pete Spratt is one of the best athletes in MMA, but still does not defend TDs too well. He has worked on it for years and there is no doubting his athletic talent. Yet we always read here how this or that great athlete with 6 months of sprawl training would do this or that. We really dont know till someone does it.
In regards to JCBLASS, the reason why MMA fighters aren't as particularly refined in their boxing techniques and such, is because they have to balance out their training, learning the other disciplines in MMA. They can't just focus on boxing specifically, because they would be eaten alive by other disciplines. Boxing fans are comparing strict boxers who have done that for 20 years, to MMA guys that have to multi-task their training.