^^ Explain how Paul Felder and Martin Kampmann allowed to continue, and Nate fight stopped. Those look much worse.. why the wife discrepancy?Â
KnockoutThoughts -^^ Explain how Paul Felder and Martin Kampmann allowed to continue, and Nate fight stopped. Those look much worse.. why the wife discrepancy?Â
Probably because Nate was taking a beating and not winning any part of any round.
Kai Sir So Say -KnockoutThoughts -^^ Explain how Paul Felder and Martin Kampmann allowed to continue, and Nate fight stopped. Those look much worse.. why the wife discrepancy?Â
Probably because Nate was taking a beating and not winning any part of any round.
His cut wasn't bleeding when the doctor stopped the fight, and if anybody deserves the benefit of the doubt it's the Diaz bros. Later rounds is where they thrive. Plus it's not like Nate didn't have moments in the fight. When he would back Masvidal up on the cage with 1, 2's down the pipe he had moments, but he couldn't keep the pedal on the gas. Nate himself said he attributed that to a leg injury that didn't allow him to run like he wanted to for this fight camp. That's the only reason he didn't get on the gas, because when he was pressuring with punches some were finding the target with Masvidal with his hands down.  Plus that cut happened 6 weeks ago in the Pettis fight. It was impossible for it to heal up that fast. He should have been given the opportunity. Nate also threatened with a leg submission at the end of the round when it was stopped. He wasn't completely out of the fight as many are suggesting. 3-0 Masvidal, but far from done..
KnockoutThoughts -^^ Explain how Paul Felder and Martin Kampmann allowed to continue, and Nate fight stopped. Those look much worse.. why the wife discrepancy?Â
Autocorrect is crazy..lol This shit turned whatever I originally said into why the wife discrepancy. Now that's hilarious! I like it, and I'm going to leave it like that..no edit.Â
Captain Canuck -I think at some point comissions may require long term insurance coverage for fighters for CTE and other trauma.
Who pays for it, the fighter or the promotion, I don't know but with MMA aging, just like boxing, you are going to see more Gary Goodridge issues.
Gary lives in Canada so there has been the ability to access universal health care but globally, things may need to change as the sport evolves.
This is a much bigger problem in boxing. The gaps closing as the striking in mma is getting so much better. Was pretty common for old boxers becoming 'punch drunk', slurring speech being the most easily spotted sympton. It was shocking to see Muhammed Ali deteriorate like he did. Watch the Chuck Wepner fight it probably caused Ali's problem. He much have punched him in the back of the head hundreds of times. Maybe the dirtest fight i ever saw. Insurance for fighters for brain damage in a sport designed to cause brain damage would be a tough sell to insurance companies.
JoeHurley -jpm995 -JoeHurley -jpm995 -Appreciate the insite from a professional but i've seen fights that looked worse go on and everyone knows how tough Nate is. I realize its a very tough call but the importance of the fight and the fact that Nate was still fighting back and pushing foward made me want to see it go the distance. It's funny you see boxing matches where guys are literally getting killed [im thinking of the Breveort [spelled wrong] fight and nobody saved that poor guy to fights where blood stops the fight. I guess part of the problem is billing a fight as the baddest mf then stopping it on a cut.
The rules are in place to protect the fighters and they don't change just because "its an important fight", "everyone knows how tough he is" or "irs billed as baddest mf". Get out of here with that stupid shit.
It doesnt matter if the fighter wants to continue either. That's the kind of stuff that used to be allowed in sports back in the day. I remember football players getting concussions and going right back into the game because they feel fine and want to keep playing. Then years after they retire and are suffering brain damage from CTE they want to cry about how they were taken advantage of and sue the league for millions. You can't have it both ways.
So your telling me they don't give more leeeway to certain fighters based on reputation ot title considerations. Your naive if you believe this dosen't happen. Guess you never watched any Frankie Edgar fights.
You're right man. I dont know shit. I wouldnt know about refs talking with fighters backstage and discussing things that people dont takm about like giving leeway, more time to defend or escape positions and things like that. But if I did then i would say its a private discussion and something that isn't spoken about because it can cause people to lose jobs, get blackballed, etc because it violates rules and leaves some parties open to lawsuits.Â
Heres what you might want to consider though. Nate is one of the few fighters that I honestly believe would be willing to take permanent damage or even risk death rather than giving up That's exactly why you dont allow him to get to that point in a fight. Also when it comes to cuts around the eye that's a serious situation that you have to draw a line at because the eyes are very delicate and sensitive and giving him that leeway can result in permanent damage. Look at Bisping and his eye. On a stage that big with so many people watching you can't just let it go because if something bad happens then theres no hiding it and everyone will be coming after him. Imagine if the fight continued and Nate's eye got messed up. The media would be blowing it up and calling for the ref to be crucified like when mario yamasaki let cachoeira takenthat beating from schevchenko. He lost his job reffing ufc fights for letting that one go on longer than he should have.Â
It's easy to sit at home and say let them fight, but there are very real consequences and repercussions for doing that. Have you said or done anything to help those refs who get in trouble for not stopping a fight soon enough? No. You bithch and complain when they do their job the right way, but dont support them when they do exactly what you're saying you wish happened with Nate and Jorge.Â
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Great post. Thanks for doing it.Â
Parts of the talk on facial lacerations in combat sports that Dr. Lovelace gives are available here on the ARP website:Â http://www.ringsidearp.org/page-18062
Denise -ranier wolfcastle -Thanks for the pic, this is the best one Iâve seen. Just based on this photo, it looks like the laceration starts at about 12:00 or 1:00 on the upper lid and traces down the outside of the globe to about 9:00. Thereâs an important nerve at the 12:00 position that could effect Nateâs ability to open his eye. The bones around the globe are very fragile, and the muscles that move the eyeball are directly under the tissue paper skin in that area. If those muscles are damaged, heâd have double vision for the rest of his life. Also, if the fat tissue under the skin from 9:00 to 12:00 is exposed, which I canât tell because of the blood, that can cause a bunch of other problems. Also, I canât tell how deep the cut is from this photo. Those are the thoughts that would be going thru my mind if I were standing there seeing that. I would also be very aware of the gravity of the fight and that I would end up being torn apart by fans if I stopped the fight. BUT my bottom line would be that Iâd rather deal with haters than have Nate never be able to fight (over maybe even see straight) again.
âDenise
I wish the fight had continued, but I appreciate and respect this info. The earlier statement âthe cut was on the eyelidâ seemed debatable on the surface. Having all of this additional info really helps. I had no idea about the additional anatomy you explained here, and definitely helps explain the decision.
Jason -Thanks for the insight. Try not to let some of the immature people here drive you away. There are plenty of intelligent, educated, well spoken people who just want to talk and learn about MMA. Like most social places, it just the ignorant ones that are the loudest.
Although the immature posters and trolls are horrible on this site and may drive some people away, I guarantee the owners not giving a shit about this site and lying repeatedly to its users, and running ghost ads that cost its users money without them knowing and the site purging secure data that could lead to the site getting hacked has driven far more users away. The fact you've posted in this thread while not addressing any of the numerous threads on the OG calling for yours and kiriks attention is disgusting .
Â
Sorry for hijacking the thread. Thanks OP for posting, I Hope you stick around
Hey Denise -
Thanks for the professional feedback associated with the fight decision.
Humble apologies for the idiots who roam here.
Unfortunately, that kind of behavior on an anonymous message board is far too common.
In any case, I hope this won't dissuade you from posting here in the future.
For most of us, your insight is much appreciated.
Thanks again.
Jump Kick -ÂDenise -Â3fie -ÂDenise - As some of you know, I'm a certified ringside physician with the FL State Athletic Commission. I know the NY ringside doctor who called the fight last night, his name is Nitin. I've seen this guy at every Association of Ringside Physicians annual meeting I've attended over the last 12 years. He's always there to learn, keep up to date, and give his own teaching lectures. Nitin is the chief medical officer for the NYSAC and was tireless in his work to get the sport of MMA legalized in NY. He is a professor at Cornell, where he did his neurology training, and heads up the concussion treatment and research clinic for the university. This guy loves MMA and is a walking encyclopedia of UFC/MMA knowledge. He respects the athletes and is fully aware of the career and financial implications his decisions might have on these men and women. He knows who Nate Diaz is and knows his history and his capabilities. Eye injuries, especially lacerations of the lids and area around the eyeball itself, are serious. If Nitin opined that it was unsafe for Nate to continue, then it was unsafe for Nate to continue. Good call.âDenise
Thanks for the insight, key is the doc knows Nate which is always critical in that they would know the punishment he can take etc. Two questions:
1. Does someone have to call the doctor in to take a look or can the doctor enter the cage on his own after viewing say footage or real time damage. In this case did the ref hail for the doctor, or an official in the ring at the break or someone else?
Â
2. Can the fighters sign a waiver to disallow doctor stoppages at an event, or the promotion sign off on not having a doctor stoppage. For this particular fight and the nature or title of it, could there have been anyway to avoid a doctorâs stoppage?
- In most states (the laws differ somewhat) the ref has to ask the dr to enter the ring, the physician doesnât have the right to enter the ring or even stop the fight. That being said, we all work together to protect the fighters; if Iâm concerned about something, all I need to do is catch the refâs eye, and heâll wave me in at an appropriate time. Also, most refs are not going to go against a drâs recommendations to stop a fight, even tho they technically could.
2.No. We have to protect the fighters from themselves, most would keep fighting until they died, and the promotorsâŚwell, at times, the fighterâs best interests can take a back seat to the promotor making money, so that wouldnât be a good idea. Many of the busier fight states (CA, NE, FL, NY, NJ) assign their better/more experienced doctors to work important fights or main events. It is taken into consideration as to how well a specific doctor knows the sport and the particular fighters. Speaking for myself, I would let a skilled veteran fighter in an important fight (eg, Diaz, Thurman) go on longer than I would a kid in a debut on the undercard. Most of the more experienced docs would do the same.
âDenise
Thank you Denise for yor input. You wrote:
"Speaking for myself, I would let a skilled veteran fighter in an important fight (eg, Diaz, Thurman) go on longer than I would a kid in a debut on the undercard. Most of the more experienced docs would do the same."
Why? On the surface it could be seen as fighter safety being seen as less important when bigger business is on the line. Please clarify.
Great point, Jump. Once again, Iâm only speaking for myself, but this is what goes through my mind, more or less. If Iâm working a fight where the combatants are pros, but theyâre not high level pros, they fight less than part time. These folks have full time jobs and train when they can. They often varyi tremendously in the time, effort, and coaching provided in their camps. They are fighting for $500, if theyâre lucky. Often, I know very little about these fighters or their camps. On the other hand, Iâm pretty certain Manny Pacquiao had a well run training camp, good nutrition, and has great healthcare follow up available to him. I also know a lot about his record and athletic performance over the last many years.
The insurance required by my state for the promotors to carry on these fighters will probably not even fully cover a visit to the ER, forget about any hospital stay, surgery, or rehab. If this fighter cannot go back to work on Monday, s/he will likely lose their car, apartment, etc. Likewise, if they need a surgery, itâs either going to bankrupt them or itâs not going to get done.
That fighter is more likely to have me recommend a stoppage for some type of a cut or some other non-crippling or life threatening injury than a Diaz or a Thurman with the same non-critical injury. If the injury is serious, eg. risks an eye, I donât care who the fighter is, and Iâll recommend a medical stoppage. Another example, Iâm going to stop a fight more quickly if I know a fighter had a bad weight cut, or had a history of losing their last fight with a bad KO.
I hope that clarifies things somewhat. I have spent an awful lot of time thinking about such things, educating myself, and talking to fighters and their coaches. I want the combatants to get the best medical care I can give them.
âDenise
KnockoutThoughts -Â^^ Explain how Paul Felder and Martin Kampmann allowed to continue, and Nate fight stopped. Those look much worse.. why the wife discrepancy?Â
Great question, I wish I knew the answer. And let me reiterate that I am just guessing as to why Diaz got stopped, based upon the photos weâve all seen and the knowledge that the doc who attended him knows his stuff, understands the importance of the fight to the fighters, and is not against combat sports in any way. I would have personally recommended a stoppage for Kampman and Felder based upon the photos you showed, but I wasnât there. Could be the doc was in a state where the ringside MD needs to be asked in the ring by the ref and wasnât, could be the doc didnât think the cut was as bad in the the ring as it looked in the photos you showed, could be the doc wasnât aware of the dangers of cuts in that location. Or maybe something else. Medicine is always about judgement, experience with and/or knowledge of the specific condition, and circumstance. And sometimes we make mistakes, too.
âDenise
Great thread, cool to see 2 docs show up and (try to) educate us a little. I never realized a cut above the eye could have permanent consequences to eyesight.
Upperdog -williepep -ÂIn the grand scheme of things I think it is an ok outcome because Nate obviously would have kept fighting.
That area has taken a lot of damage.
It gives Nate a way out of a fight that was not going his way (not saying he wanted that) and sets the stage for another match if that is what is decided. A story a narrative is in place and all was done in the name of safety.
Nate took Jorgeâs best shots. The championship rounds is where Nate shines. Jorge looked to be fading while Nate was seemingly picking up ground.
âFight one more round. When your feet are so tired that you have to shuffle back to the centre of the ring, fight one more round. When your arms are so tired that you can hardly lift your hands to come on guard, fight one more round.â
Denise and Nitin know nothing of these things.
This is such a myth. Seriously, where does this even come from? Diaz has only been in the championship rounds twice in his entire career.Â
Against Benson he got dominated for both rounds. and against Connor he lost the 4th and won a close 5th round.Â
Dr was worried a chunk of his flesh might get lacerated off with a Masvidal strikeÂ
Denise -Jump Kick -ÂDenise -Â3fie -ÂDenise - As some of you know, I'm a certified ringside physician with the FL State Athletic Commission. I know the NY ringside doctor who called the fight last night, his name is Nitin. I've seen this guy at every Association of Ringside Physicians annual meeting I've attended over the last 12 years. He's always there to learn, keep up to date, and give his own teaching lectures. Nitin is the chief medical officer for the NYSAC and was tireless in his work to get the sport of MMA legalized in NY. He is a professor at Cornell, where he did his neurology training, and heads up the concussion treatment and research clinic for the university. This guy loves MMA and is a walking encyclopedia of UFC/MMA knowledge. He respects the athletes and is fully aware of the career and financial implications his decisions might have on these men and women. He knows who Nate Diaz is and knows his history and his capabilities. Eye injuries, especially lacerations of the lids and area around the eyeball itself, are serious. If Nitin opined that it was unsafe for Nate to continue, then it was unsafe for Nate to continue. Good call.âDenise
Thanks for the insight, key is the doc knows Nate which is always critical in that they would know the punishment he can take etc. Two questions:
1. Does someone have to call the doctor in to take a look or can the doctor enter the cage on his own after viewing say footage or real time damage. In this case did the ref hail for the doctor, or an official in the ring at the break or someone else?
Â
2. Can the fighters sign a waiver to disallow doctor stoppages at an event, or the promotion sign off on not having a doctor stoppage. For this particular fight and the nature or title of it, could there have been anyway to avoid a doctorâs stoppage?
- In most states (the laws differ somewhat) the ref has to ask the dr to enter the ring, the physician doesnât have the right to enter the ring or even stop the fight. That being said, we all work together to protect the fighters; if Iâm concerned about something, all I need to do is catch the refâs eye, and heâll wave me in at an appropriate time. Also, most refs are not going to go against a drâs recommendations to stop a fight, even tho they technically could.
2.No. We have to protect the fighters from themselves, most would keep fighting until they died, and the promotorsâŚwell, at times, the fighterâs best interests can take a back seat to the promotor making money, so that wouldnât be a good idea. Many of the busier fight states (CA, NE, FL, NY, NJ) assign their better/more experienced doctors to work important fights or main events. It is taken into consideration as to how well a specific doctor knows the sport and the particular fighters. Speaking for myself, I would let a skilled veteran fighter in an important fight (eg, Diaz, Thurman) go on longer than I would a kid in a debut on the undercard. Most of the more experienced docs would do the same.
âDenise
Thank you Denise for yor input. You wrote:
"Speaking for myself, I would let a skilled veteran fighter in an important fight (eg, Diaz, Thurman) go on longer than I would a kid in a debut on the undercard. Most of the more experienced docs would do the same."
Why? On the surface it could be seen as fighter safety being seen as less important when bigger business is on the line. Please clarify.
Great point, Jump. Once again, Iâm only speaking for myself, but this is what goes through my mind, more or less. If Iâm working a fight where the combatants are pros, but theyâre not high level pros, they fight less than part time. These folks have full time jobs and train when they can. They often varyi tremendously in the time, effort, and coaching provided in their camps. They are fighting for $500, if theyâre lucky. Often, I know very little about these fighters or their camps. On the other hand, Iâm pretty certain Manny Pacquiao had a well run training camp, good nutrition, and has great healthcare follow up available to him. I also know a lot about his record and athletic performance over the last many years.
The insurance required by my state for the promotors to carry on these fighters will probably not even fully cover a visit to the ER, forget about any hospital stay, surgery, or rehab. If this fighter cannot go back to work on Monday, s/he will likely lose their car, apartment, etc. Likewise, if they need a surgery, itâs either going to bankrupt them or itâs not going to get done.
That fighter is more likely to have me recommend a stoppage for some type of a cut or some other non-crippling or life threatening injury than a Diaz or a Thurman with the same non-critical injury. If the injury is serious, eg. risks an eye, I donât care who the fighter is, and Iâll recommend a medical stoppage. Another example, Iâm going to stop a fight more quickly if I know a fighter had a bad weight cut, or had a history of losing their last fight with a bad KO.
I hope that clarifies things somewhat. I have spent an awful lot of time thinking about such things, educating myself, and talking to fighters and their coaches. I want the combatants to get the best medical care I can give them.
âDenise
Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. The way your post was worded, it implied a fighter on a UFC undercard which would mean they are getting paid way more than $500 to fight and that they also have top notch UFC insurance in place. Otherwise your points are understood and taken. Cheers. The sport needs dedicated individuals like yourself as it continues to try to gain legitimacy, in the face of rules that encourage a fighter to pound the head of an unconscious opponent, a scenario that would be considered intent to kill in any other situation.Â
Thanks for sharing your insights, doc.