The truth is, the Dr probably included the fact that there was no way in hell that Nate was going to win that fight and saved what little brain cells he has left.
From our uneducated fan look, the cut, while nasty, was way above the eye so no danger for his eyesight. Maybe we are wrong, and Denise seems to imply so, as otherwise it's frustrating for sure.
And damn itâs rare I want the mods to lay down the hammer but this is ridiculous. It was a good contribution by Denise, whether we agree or not.
3 Likes
Even though it was lopsided, Evans didn't really take a ton of damage against bones. Would be a great match up if Rashad is willing. 
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Sprawl'n'Stall - From our uneducated fan look, the cut, while nasty, was way above the eye so no danger for his eyesight. Maybe we are wrong, and Denise seems to imply so, as otherwise it's frustrating for sure.And damn itâs rare I want the mods to lay down the hammer but this is ridiculous. It was a good contribution by Denise, whether we agree or not.
You are assuming that the damage would have stopped with what was done at the end of round 3. You don't think another 2 rounds would have opened up even more cuts and damage when jorge started targeting it for another 10 minutes?
I have trained with Denise in Clearwater. She is the most respectful person you'll ever meet and a real BJJ veteran and black belt
those asking for pics need to grow up and show some respect
3 Likes
I will add my two cents for what it is worth. I am a ringside MD in SC. I think I would have let that fight continue, but it is really hard to say without having been in the cage at the time the decision had to be made. It was a close call, as evidenced by the lack of unanimity of opinions from officials about what should have been done. I don't think that it was a clearly bad call by any stretch, even though I think I would have called differently. At UFC Greenville Matt Winman had a similar cut over his left eye and I let that fight continue, to the surprise of the referee.Â
Expereinced ringside MDs should have a clear idea of what criteria make a cut a fight stopper and what cuts donât. There are actually some good presentations on this topic that ARP has done. Like Denise said above, the criteria can slide one direction or the other based on the situation. For instance, at the UFC event I was leading a team of 5 MDs of varied specialties- including a trauma surgeon who was there specifically to close lacerations with an extensive tool kit for that purpose. In addition, I had the ability to send any fighter to the hospital for more specialized care if needed at no cost to the fighter. The UFC in particular does a great job with the medical follow-up of their fighters, so I know they will get the ongoing care they need. Top tier professional fighters are able to be primarially focused on fighting, so I am willing to accept the potential risk of what âcould happenâ if the laceration is hit again; where at local/regional fights with lower level pros who are not making their primary income from fighting I am much more likely to consider the impact on their day job and/or potential risk of significant injury from progression of the laceration. In addition, at most smaller events I am the only MD there, which means I need to feel comfortable closing the laceration at the end of the event with the tools and skills I have, and the fighters are much less likely to have insurance and/or the ability to afford further care after the event. There is also a higher chance of the fighter disappearing during the event without getting the laceration treated, which has happened to me a number of times.
I am much faster to stop ammy fights for cuts, and in the unusual event that a cut happens at a boxing event with minors, I essentially always stop the fight immediately.
I donât typically take the reputation of the individual fighter into account when making decisions about them, but there actions as I assess them do play a role. Specifically, their verbalization of an intent to continue is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition to allowing the fight to go on. When I walked into the cage to look at Matt, he ran over screaming âIâm fine letâs fucking go!!!â While pounding his fists together. If I looked at the same cut while he was wilting on the stool and he hesitated when I asked âdo you want to continue?â, then I would have stopped it.
I also always ask the fighter if they want to continue when I look at them for a laceration or taking excessive shots, and if they seem medically OK but seem to want out I tell them that if they want to stop I will stop it and people can blame me (this is typically ammys and green pros). I have had quite a few people take me up on that.
Sorry that this is rambling, I am trying to type this on the app between other tasks.
8 Likes
Some classless idiots in here....
SC MMA MD -I will add my two cents for what it is worth. I am a ringside MD in SC. I think I would have let that fight continue, but it is really hard to say without having been in the cage at the time the decision had to be made. It was a close call, as evidenced by the lack of unanimity of opinions from officials about what should have been done. I don't think that it was a clearly bad call by any stretch, even though I think I would have called differently. At UFC Greenville Matt Winman had a similar cut over his left eye and I let that fight continue, to the surprise of the referee.Â
Expereinced ringside MDs should have a clear idea of what criteria make a cut a fight stopper and what cuts donât. There are actually some good presentations on this topic that ARP has done. Like Denise said above, the criteria can slide one direction or the other based on the situation. For instance, at the UFC event I was leading a team of 5 MDs of varied specialties- including a trauma surgeon who was there specifically to close lacerations with an extensive tool kit for that purpose. In addition, I had the ability to send any fighter to the hospital for more specialized care if needed at no cost to the fighter. The UFC in particular does a great job with the medical follow-up of their fighters, so I know they will get the ongoing care they need. Top tier professional fighters are able to be primarially focused on fighting, so I am willing to accept the potential risk of what âcould happenâ if the laceration is hit again; where at local/regional fights with lower level pros who are not making their primary income from fighting I am much more likely to consider the impact on their day job and/or potential risk of significant injury from progression of the laceration. In addition, at most smaller events I am the only MD there, which means I need to feel comfortable closing the laceration at the end of the event with the tools and skills I have, and the fighters are much less likely to have insurance and/or the ability to afford further care after the event. There is also a higher chance of the fighter disappearing during the event without getting the laceration treated, which has happened to me a number of times.
I am much faster to stop ammy fights for cuts, and in the unusual event that a cut happens at a boxing event with minors, I essentially always stop the fight immediately.
I donât typically take the reputation of the individual fighter into account when making decisions about them, but there actions as I assess them do play a role. Specifically, their verbalization of an intent to continue is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition to allowing the fight to go on. When I walked into the cage to look at Matt, he ran over screaming âIâm fine letâs fucking go!!!â While pounding his fists together. If I looked at the same cut while he was wilting on the stool and he hesitated when I asked âdo you want to continue?â, then I would have stopped it.
I also always ask the fighter if they want to continue when I look at them for a laceration or taking excessive shots, and if they seem medically OK but seem to want out I tell them that if they want to stop I will stop it and people can blame me (this is typically ammys and green pros). I have had quite a few people take me up on that.
Sorry that this is rambling, I am trying to type this on the app between other tasks.
Would you have not taken the damage Nate was taking as a whole into your decision?
Thanks for posting SC MMA MD.
JoeHurley -jpm995 -JoeHurley -jpm995 -Appreciate the insite from a professional but i've seen fights that looked worse go on and everyone knows how tough Nate is. I realize its a very tough call but the importance of the fight and the fact that Nate was still fighting back and pushing foward made me want to see it go the distance. It's funny you see boxing matches where guys are literally getting killed [im thinking of the Breveort [spelled wrong] fight and nobody saved that poor guy to fights where blood stops the fight. I guess part of the problem is billing a fight as the baddest mf then stopping it on a cut.
The rules are in place to protect the fighters and they don't change just because "its an important fight", "everyone knows how tough he is" or "irs billed as baddest mf". Get out of here with that stupid shit.
It doesnt matter if the fighter wants to continue either. That's the kind of stuff that used to be allowed in sports back in the day. I remember football players getting concussions and going right back into the game because they feel fine and want to keep playing. Then years after they retire and are suffering brain damage from CTE they want to cry about how they were taken advantage of and sue the league for millions. You can't have it both ways.
So your telling me they don't give more leeeway to certain fighters based on reputation ot title considerations. Your naive if you believe this dosen't happen. Guess you never watched any Frankie Edgar fights.
You're right man. I dont know shit. I wouldnt know about refs talking with fighters backstage and discussing things that people dont takm about like giving leeway, more time to defend or escape positions and things like that. But if I did then i would say its a private discussion and something that isn't spoken about because it can cause people to lose jobs, get blackballed, etc because it violates rules and leaves some parties open to lawsuits.Â
Heres what you might want to consider though. Nate is one of the few fighters that I honestly believe would be willing to take permanent damage or even risk death rather than giving up That's exactly why you dont allow him to get to that point in a fight. Also when it comes to cuts around the eye that's a serious situation that you have to draw a line at because the eyes are very delicate and sensitive and giving him that leeway can result in permanent damage. Look at Bisping and his eye. On a stage that big with so many people watching you can't just let it go because if something bad happens then theres no hiding it and everyone will be coming after him. Imagine if the fight continued and Nate's eye got messed up. The media would be blowing it up and calling for the ref to be crucified like when mario yamasaki let cachoeira takenthat beating from schevchenko. He lost his job reffing ufc fights for letting that one go on longer than he should have.Â
It's easy to sit at home and say let them fight, but there are very real consequences and repercussions for doing that. Have you said or done anything to help those refs who get in trouble for not stopping a fight soon enough? No. You bithch and complain when they do their job the right way, but dont support them when they do exactly what you're saying you wish happened with Nate and Jorge.Â
Â
I said i didn't agree with the doc's decision i'm not calling for anyone's head. To me the fighters corner opinions should be considered. Most docs don't really like fighting it goes against everything they believe. Many seem clueless about mma. I was a boxing fan for years and most athletic commissions are terrible. Weather its corruption, incompetence, nepotism they rarely get anything right. Maybe as an insider you can help me with this. How come in many big fights it takes so long to total up the scores? The math is simple addition mma should be even easier than boxing but on many fights it takes forever, I always suspect some trickery is going on but would like a second opinion.
Kai Sir So Say -SC MMA MD -I will add my two cents for what it is worth. I am a ringside MD in SC. I think I would have let that fight continue, but it is really hard to say without having been in the cage at the time the decision had to be made. It was a close call, as evidenced by the lack of unanimity of opinions from officials about what should have been done. I don't think that it was a clearly bad call by any stretch, even though I think I would have called differently. At UFC Greenville Matt Winman had a similar cut over his left eye and I let that fight continue, to the surprise of the referee.Â
Expereinced ringside MDs should have a clear idea of what criteria make a cut a fight stopper and what cuts donât. There are actually some good presentations on this topic that ARP has done. Like Denise said above, the criteria can slide one direction or the other based on the situation. For instance, at the UFC event I was leading a team of 5 MDs of varied specialties- including a trauma surgeon who was there specifically to close lacerations with an extensive tool kit for that purpose. In addition, I had the ability to send any fighter to the hospital for more specialized care if needed at no cost to the fighter. The UFC in particular does a great job with the medical follow-up of their fighters, so I know they will get the ongoing care they need. Top tier professional fighters are able to be primarially focused on fighting, so I am willing to accept the potential risk of what âcould happenâ if the laceration is hit again; where at local/regional fights with lower level pros who are not making their primary income from fighting I am much more likely to consider the impact on their day job and/or potential risk of significant injury from progression of the laceration. In addition, at most smaller events I am the only MD there, which means I need to feel comfortable closing the laceration at the end of the event with the tools and skills I have, and the fighters are much less likely to have insurance and/or the ability to afford further care after the event. There is also a higher chance of the fighter disappearing during the event without getting the laceration treated, which has happened to me a number of times.
I am much faster to stop ammy fights for cuts, and in the unusual event that a cut happens at a boxing event with minors, I essentially always stop the fight immediately.
I donât typically take the reputation of the individual fighter into account when making decisions about them, but there actions as I assess them do play a role. Specifically, their verbalization of an intent to continue is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition to allowing the fight to go on. When I walked into the cage to look at Matt, he ran over screaming âIâm fine letâs fucking go!!!â While pounding his fists together. If I looked at the same cut while he was wilting on the stool and he hesitated when I asked âdo you want to continue?â, then I would have stopped it.
I also always ask the fighter if they want to continue when I look at them for a laceration or taking excessive shots, and if they seem medically OK but seem to want out I tell them that if they want to stop I will stop it and people can blame me (this is typically ammys and green pros). I have had quite a few people take me up on that.
Sorry that this is rambling, I am trying to type this on the app between other tasks.
Would you have not taken the damage Nate was taking as a whole into your decision?
Sort of yes and no. I have stopped fights where there was not a single specific injury event but a fighter was taking increasing damage and they were âwiltingâ- shelling up and not firing back, changing their movements, clearly gassed etc when they had no chance to win the fight except a Hail Mary KO; but in this case I donât think I would have felt like Nate was in a clearly losing battle at that point, and he seemed OK from a neuro standpoint so I probably would have made my decision just on the laceration. I am being wishy-washy because I watch fights very differently as a fan vs judge vs MD, and it is very hard to get a feel how a fighter is doing unless you are actually right there assessing them
2 Likes
Looks like the mods have taken out the trash.
3 Likes
jpm995 -JoeHurley -jpm995 -JoeHurley -jpm995 -Appreciate the insite from a professional but i've seen fights that looked worse go on and everyone knows how tough Nate is. I realize its a very tough call but the importance of the fight and the fact that Nate was still fighting back and pushing foward made me want to see it go the distance. It's funny you see boxing matches where guys are literally getting killed [im thinking of the Breveort [spelled wrong] fight and nobody saved that poor guy to fights where blood stops the fight. I guess part of the problem is billing a fight as the baddest mf then stopping it on a cut.
The rules are in place to protect the fighters and they don't change just because "its an important fight", "everyone knows how tough he is" or "irs billed as baddest mf". Get out of here with that stupid shit.
It doesnt matter if the fighter wants to continue either. That's the kind of stuff that used to be allowed in sports back in the day. I remember football players getting concussions and going right back into the game because they feel fine and want to keep playing. Then years after they retire and are suffering brain damage from CTE they want to cry about how they were taken advantage of and sue the league for millions. You can't have it both ways.
So your telling me they don't give more leeeway to certain fighters based on reputation ot title considerations. Your naive if you believe this dosen't happen. Guess you never watched any Frankie Edgar fights.
You're right man. I dont know shit. I wouldnt know about refs talking with fighters backstage and discussing things that people dont takm about like giving leeway, more time to defend or escape positions and things like that. But if I did then i would say its a private discussion and something that isn't spoken about because it can cause people to lose jobs, get blackballed, etc because it violates rules and leaves some parties open to lawsuits.Â
Heres what you might want to consider though. Nate is one of the few fighters that I honestly believe would be willing to take permanent damage or even risk death rather than giving up That's exactly why you dont allow him to get to that point in a fight. Also when it comes to cuts around the eye that's a serious situation that you have to draw a line at because the eyes are very delicate and sensitive and giving him that leeway can result in permanent damage. Look at Bisping and his eye. On a stage that big with so many people watching you can't just let it go because if something bad happens then theres no hiding it and everyone will be coming after him. Imagine if the fight continued and Nate's eye got messed up. The media would be blowing it up and calling for the ref to be crucified like when mario yamasaki let cachoeira takenthat beating from schevchenko. He lost his job reffing ufc fights for letting that one go on longer than he should have.Â
It's easy to sit at home and say let them fight, but there are very real consequences and repercussions for doing that. Have you said or done anything to help those refs who get in trouble for not stopping a fight soon enough? No. You bithch and complain when they do their job the right way, but dont support them when they do exactly what you're saying you wish happened with Nate and Jorge.Â
Â
I said i didn't agree with the doc's decision i'm not calling for anyone's head. To me the fighters corner opinions should be considered. Most docs don't really like fighting it goes against everything they believe. Many seem clueless about mma. I was a boxing fan for years and most athletic commissions are terrible. Weather its corruption, incompetence, nepotism they rarely get anything right. Maybe as an insider you can help me with this. How come in many big fights it takes so long to total up the scores? The math is simple addition mma should be even easier than boxing but on many fights it takes forever, I always suspect some trickery is going on but would like a second opinion.
I understand man. Trust me, I'm a fan too so I get it. Sometimes it sucks that things turn like this but it's better toner on the side of caution so guys dont wind up like those old school NFL guys I mentioned before.
2 Likes
JoeHurley -jpm995 -JoeHurley -jpm995 -JoeHurley -jpm995 -Appreciate the insite from a professional but i've seen fights that looked worse go on and everyone knows how tough Nate is. I realize its a very tough call but the importance of the fight and the fact that Nate was still fighting back and pushing foward made me want to see it go the distance. It's funny you see boxing matches where guys are literally getting killed [im thinking of the Breveort [spelled wrong] fight and nobody saved that poor guy to fights where blood stops the fight. I guess part of the problem is billing a fight as the baddest mf then stopping it on a cut.
The rules are in place to protect the fighters and they don't change just because "its an important fight", "everyone knows how tough he is" or "irs billed as baddest mf". Get out of here with that stupid shit.
It doesnt matter if the fighter wants to continue either. That's the kind of stuff that used to be allowed in sports back in the day. I remember football players getting concussions and going right back into the game because they feel fine and want to keep playing. Then years after they retire and are suffering brain damage from CTE they want to cry about how they were taken advantage of and sue the league for millions. You can't have it both ways.
So your telling me they don't give more leeeway to certain fighters based on reputation ot title considerations. Your naive if you believe this dosen't happen. Guess you never watched any Frankie Edgar fights.
You're right man. I dont know shit. I wouldnt know about refs talking with fighters backstage and discussing things that people dont takm about like giving leeway, more time to defend or escape positions and things like that. But if I did then i would say its a private discussion and something that isn't spoken about because it can cause people to lose jobs, get blackballed, etc because it violates rules and leaves some parties open to lawsuits.Â
Heres what you might want to consider though. Nate is one of the few fighters that I honestly believe would be willing to take permanent damage or even risk death rather than giving up That's exactly why you dont allow him to get to that point in a fight. Also when it comes to cuts around the eye that's a serious situation that you have to draw a line at because the eyes are very delicate and sensitive and giving him that leeway can result in permanent damage. Look at Bisping and his eye. On a stage that big with so many people watching you can't just let it go because if something bad happens then theres no hiding it and everyone will be coming after him. Imagine if the fight continued and Nate's eye got messed up. The media would be blowing it up and calling for the ref to be crucified like when mario yamasaki let cachoeira takenthat beating from schevchenko. He lost his job reffing ufc fights for letting that one go on longer than he should have.Â
It's easy to sit at home and say let them fight, but there are very real consequences and repercussions for doing that. Have you said or done anything to help those refs who get in trouble for not stopping a fight soon enough? No. You bithch and complain when they do their job the right way, but dont support them when they do exactly what you're saying you wish happened with Nate and Jorge.Â
Â
I said i didn't agree with the doc's decision i'm not calling for anyone's head. To me the fighters corner opinions should be considered. Most docs don't really like fighting it goes against everything they believe. Many seem clueless about mma. I was a boxing fan for years and most athletic commissions are terrible. Weather its corruption, incompetence, nepotism they rarely get anything right. Maybe as an insider you can help me with this. How come in many big fights it takes so long to total up the scores? The math is simple addition mma should be even easier than boxing but on many fights it takes forever, I always suspect some trickery is going on but would like a second opinion.
I understand man. Trust me, I'm a fan too so I get it. Sometimes it sucks that things turn like this but it's better toner on the side of caution so guys dont wind up like those old school NFL guys I mentioned before.
Thanks for the reasonable reply. With all the info coming out about head trauma i suspect at some point contact sports may be banned. As much as i love boxing its hard to believe taking repeated blows to the head won't cause long term brain damage. I've heard even a single sparring session can cause brain damage. Â
1 Like
I think at some point comissions may require long term insurance coverage for fighters for CTE and other trauma.
Who pays for it, the fighter or the promotion, I don't know but with MMA aging, just like boxing, you are going to see more Gary Goodridge issues.
Gary lives in Canada so there has been the ability to access universal health care but globally, things may need to change as the sport evolves.
Great insight I didn't realize it was on his eye lid or that the cut could cause eye problems for Nate. Losing a fight and keeping a fully functional eye is a good trade. The fighter doesn't always realize what he's at risk of during the fight and that's what the doctors are there for. It was a good fight and good stoppage. Thanks for shedding some light on everything.
I really appreciate that there are some professionals here on the UG to provide some real expert opinions. Thank you!
1 Like
JonJonesBone -Real Muthaphuckkin G -Nice Lecture OP. You are obligated to support your cronies and wouldn't want you to say anything negative about the amazing man that is Nitin. Blau Blau Blau.Â
The cut was not on his eye lid. It was above the Brow and there was no fear of eye damage. If the cut was on the lid as you stated I would agree.
The doctor wanted to be an attention whore and call the fight. If he let it go, no one knows his name. Now he will get his 15 minutes of fame, money, and opportunities all while robbing Nate Diaz of millions in future earnings.
Thanks for taking the time to defend your buddy but with all due respect and I do mean with all do respectâŚÂ
How did he rob Nate of future earnings you dumb ass. You really think the doctor wanted to stop that fight and bring a ton of unwanted negative attention to himself? He clearly felt it was needed to stop the fight and thatâs why he did.
I didnât like the stoppage, I was pissed the fight was stopped, I had a nice chunk of change on Diaz to win but that was a nasty cut and I can understand why it was stopped and can accept it without acting like a baby in your case.
Â
Also itâs pieces of shits like you that run professionals with real insight off the board. If you disagree then voice it in a reasonable post, and have a discussion like an adult instead you act like an uneducated piece of trash throwing a fit like a baby because thatâs all you know. Iâm sure many people on this forum including myself would prefer someone like OP who can offer real insight and knowledge into MMA over an uneducated piece of shit such as yourself who really has nothing to offer.
The doc ainât gonna put his finger up your ass. Â You can stop white knightingÂ
