? about hand position

Im watching the Gatti fight on HBO right now and I noticed something.

Gatti seems to be slipping/bobbing with 1 hand next to his head, and the other near his waist. (like his fist is next to his elbow)

I noticed De La Hoya doing this in his Vargus fight also.

Why do they slip like that? Is there a technical/mechanic reason for this?

To me, it seems like you leave half your face open to getting hit.

It covers your body, but I rather get hit in the ribs than the face.

If Im not mistaken Oscar covers his chin with his left shoulder. The one fighter thats I think of when I see this style is Tommy Hearns. Why? Good question. TTT

Isn't that the Philly Shell?

And it does seem to assist with the movement of the head and upper body. Seems and feels more balanced.

You can use the elbow of the low hand to parry shots but I hardly see guys in the ring use it, well not so obviously anyway.

"And it does seem to assist with the movement of the head and upper body. Seems and feels more balanced. "

Thats what I heard when Oscar did it for his Vargus fight.

"they do it because it keeps the left arm loose and relaxed and ready to snap at your opponent. Your left arm also doesn't tire as easily as when you hold it up high.

The jab also comes from an angle often below your opponents vision so it can provide a new angle of attack"

But I never see (well from the 2 fights) them jab while bobbing. Its always bobbing/slipping only.

It just seems like they are wide open on 1 side of their face.

Old school Tyson slipped/bobbed with both hands on his chin...wouldnt that be better? He didnt seem to have a problem with moving/balancing.

tyson's defense is a variation of a peek a boo. his slipping style, uses a side bending motion. he takes his hips and shoulders and moves them in opposite directions for quick slips.

the hand up/hand down defense is called a half guard defense. its a narrow stance and leaves the head a bit vulnerable but both those points are good for drawing and slipping punches. it was used a lot by old detroit fighters but the art has been lost over the past few decades. the young fighters still try to use it but neglect a lot of the attributes needed to master it (PBF & toney are both good at it, and both from the detroit area). DLH does it wrong too. mayweather sr knows it but doesn't know how to teach it well. DLH touches his shoulder to his chin but what you want to do is raise the shoulder as high as you can to the cheek bone so you know the jaw joint is protected. there's a few more points to it but thats the main one.

it also depends on how you use it. its not a wonder defense becasue you still have to use it appropriately. for example, take a look at the fight with gatti and PBF. gatti slips the jab then stays in that position. what the hell is he staying down there for? if he slipped the jab, then raised up rolling his shoulder at the same time it would have blocked the straight right. he could then counter, or block the hook, etc etc etc. PBF uses it really well against n'dou, laughing at him the whole time he's on defense. like all skills, it takes practice. there is no one wonder defense.

"Learn the best skills and give the best effort because winning has nothing to do with luck!"

You are right on Lethal Athletics this a throw back defensive posture that the old heads use to use. The object in boxing as changed and that's why cats don't know how to use it now. Being to defensive can cause you rounds, and the action will also drop off. The body has to move as well as you have to know how to catch those shots off the shoulder and between the gloves... The reason why Gatti took so many head shots is because he didn't understand how to use it. but PBF did and exploited it every time. It's the little things that get by people when your watching tapes. Floyd change the angles and crowded the open side of the guard making it harder for Gatti to see that right hand... This is also an open window thus PBF fired down the line right into the openning.

when a boxer knows his game and it's rules he's hard to beat... Archie Moore had two variations of this shell which when combined forms the Armadillo defense that he was know for. it has many names but I like the you guys put it.
Peace

"Archie Moore had two variations of this shell which when combined forms the Armadillo defense that he was know for"

More info on the Armadillo defense please

My trainer last year had me start the same style. Reason being, it is a better defensive style for fighters who are prown to being hurt by body shots! Mainly the liver, it is very akward at first, but very effective. Normally the guys that use this style have good head movement and fast hands.

the half guard is super good against body shots.

the armadillo is like putting your arms in a 69 position with your left fist at your right elbow and your right fist at your left elbow. you can place it vertical to protect the centre line or horizontal to protect the face/throat. i think it leaves lots of openings.

as to someone earlier asking about the philly shell . . . that's similar to the half guard but the defensive hand is held higher and farther away from the face. i guess its almost a cross between the armadillo and the half guard.

"Learn the best skills and give the best effort becasue winning has nothing to do with luck!"

For those of you to young to see Archie Moore...
Ken Norton, and Evander but use what some would call the Crab. LA you're right it does leave you open, but it should be combined with the crouch, and dipping
or good (bob and weave) movement. It has a lot of functionality, if you learn it well. As for the connect with the half gaurd is when the crab opens up, and you blade your body.
peace

Archie Moores defense was used by both Norton and Frazier. Like someone stated you kinda touch your elbows with your fists. The way Frazier would use it was he would place his left hand around his waist (picture someone holding thier stomach from a sotmach ache) and his right elbow above his left hand/fist going across to his left ear. Kinda making a diangonal(sp) motion. This defense helped you defen agasint body shots and uppercuts and what not. Frazier used this a lot to come inside against his fights with Ali, so did Norton. Only problem is that you're pretty much only in defense mode. Its really hard to throw punches while your in this position. But its great to come inside on your opponents. IMO the peek a boo style is better for BOTH offense and deffense.

Anyplace to see clips of some of these examples?

It just seems like most of these defenses leave a big part of your body open.

I guess with bobbing it allows you to avoid the punches, but it SEEMS like you are more open than just having your fists on your forehead, and elbows tight against your sides.

ttt

IMHO it is a range thing. A lot of boxers use this posture, but do not use it correctly. It works better from longer ranges than in close.

jkd guy, we should get together and I can explain bettoer.

martinburke is correct.

Gene Fullmer used the crab/shell defense, but actually INVERTED the arm position, making it even weirder but very effective. He was a righty and his left arm was on TOP with the right guarding the belly. Moore was the master of it. Other modern users of it are Toney, Holyfield, Floyd, and Oscar used it in his later career but wasn't as good with it as Floyd.

Basically it is a position that allows you to create angles to counter if you have the reflexes to do so, and you save energy not having to keep your left up...but you have to be careful about incoming rights. Jesus Chavez uses it very well on the inside.....

"jkd guy, we should get together and I can explain bettoer. "

Sounds good, I am out in NJ working now.

But I might be back in NY soon.

Does Hyman have your contact info?

Yes he does.

in light of DLH/PBF fight, Im bringing this thread back.

"the armadillo is like putting your arms in a 69 position with your left fist at your right elbow and your right fist at your left elbow. you can place it vertical to protect the centre line or horizontal to protect the face/throat. "

You know I was watching ESPN Classic and the Foreman/Holyfield fight was on.

I thikn Forearm does the armadillo defense?

Foreman does that a LOT. He's so damn tough in the body he just shells up top and tires the guy out by getting hit =P

as far as the "half-guard" Crazy Pete, my boxing trainer has been training for some shit like 30 years now teaches it very well. But go figure, he's an old-schooler from Detroit...

He's the best thing about Prison city boxing... =P

I just watched DLH/PBF 24/7 episode 2.

In the begining, Shane does impressions of different boxers.

Was his impression of PDF's tactics/technique correct?