I'd like to see more action on the feet (i.e. stunning wrestling and judo takedowns/throws), just as much on the ground. Pinning is an interesting idea, though
"It is highly tuned to promoting Kano's philosophy on fighting, and is very biased towards judoka rather than other styles. "
So what? The arguement put forth in this thread (which I don't think you're paying attention to) is twofold:
- That ADCC rules are style agonistic
- That ADCC isn't just a no-gi BJJ tourney
A Judo touney being "very biased" is irrelevant because we're talking about ADCC. As a side note, Sport Judo is not "biased towards judoka". That doesn't make sense. Judoka are (primarily) people who train for Sport Judo. Is the NBA biased towards basketball players? No. The main difference is that Judo, Basketball, Sambo and every other sport don't claim that their competitons are some kind of melting pot competiton created to be fair to people from numerous sports. If the NFL started going around saying their rules were made to determine the best athlete in the world (i.e. out of soccer, rugby, Arena league, CFL, and NFL) then you could make the same "biased" comment about them.. but they don't claim their rules to represent anything even remotely close to that. Likewise for Judo, Sambo, and Wrestling. None of them claim to crown the world's best takedown artist or grappler with their rules.
"How can you blame them either?"
I don't blame BJJ for anything. Not sure why you think I do.
"Even so, ADCC gives points for effectively pinning. WTF do you think passing the guard means? That you end up pinning the person. (Personally I feel guard pulling should give a few points to the other guy, and that a takedown to side control should award points for passing the guard too, but its close enough.)"
I didn't say anything about "points for pinning". I said you can not win by pin or takedown. AFAICT nearly every style of wrestling in the world allows you to win by either pin or takedown EXCEPT bjj. ADCC is a no-gi bjj tourney, period.
"Next you'll be complaining that they don't award wins for pushing the other guy out of the match."
Complaining? Please read my post again without interjecting your own context into it. I primarily train BJJ. I love the art and the sport. I would love to compete in ADCC (no rule changes needed). There is no complaint here. But to say that ADCC is somehow style agonistic is ridiculous. There are numerous changes to the rules that would make it more fair to grapplers from other styles.. this much is undeniable.
I WASN'T EVEN SUGGESTING THAT THEY MAKE THE RULE CHANGES I LISTED. Just pointing out that those rules are more fair and open to the other popular styles of wrestling.
ADCC is a Submission tournament. A submission wrestling tournament. Its to prove who the best submission wrestlers are. Its not no gi bjj, gi-less judo or anything else.
It "should" showcase the best guys at submission. Whether its a judoka, wrestler, samboist or bjj guy, whoever is the best at the submission game is usually in there. The fact the cream of the crop are also the top sport bjj guys is because top bjj guys have the best submission games, IMO.
If theres a Judoka or Sambo guy who would tap Marcello, Jacare, Roger, etc... , then by all means, put him in there.
Ya know, fedor is 3x sambo world champion...
Im getting sick of this lame "the rules favor BJJ" argument. Bullshit. ADCC has minimalistic rules, designed to prove who the best sub-grappler is. Its the closest thing to a real fight without striking.
Why should a match end with a pin? The guy didnt say uncle.
Why should a match end with a "perfect throw", the guy can still fight fine, and didnt say uncle?
These are stupid and arbitrary rules that belong in pure sports with no agenda for reality.
The reason BJJ tends to win in comps with the least amount of rules, is because it does the best in reality based conditions.
Either you can make the guy say uncle(by tapping), or you cant.
If he doesnt say uncle because he is pinned or thrown, then im sorry, the match is not over, thats just silly.
Get over it, BJJ dominates for a reason. Because it trains under the most realistic rule set. Isnt this exactly what we learned with the MMA revolution???
Once you throw out as many rules as possible, what really actually works percolates to the top, and that just happens to be BJJ.
PS: You do get awarded for throws and takedowns. If there is no tap, the scoring system takes over, and it already takes into account throws, takedowns, and positional dominance. Seems pretty damn fair to me.
"Im getting sick of this lame "the rules favor BJJ" argument. Bullshit. ADCC has minimalistic rules, designed to prove who the best sub-grappler is. "
Submission wrestling (as it is today) = no-gi BJJ. Always has, always will. Again, there are many many styles of wrestling in the world (even many that allow submission) and BJJ is the that looks most like the rules in ADCC. If you think otherwise you're just deluded.
"Its the closest thing to a real fight without striking."
Rorion, is that you?
"Why should a match end with a pin? The guy didnt say uncle. "
Then why should the match end in a specificed time? Why not just go no time limits and no points?
"Get over it, BJJ dominates for a reason. Because it trains under the most realistic rule set. "
Pluh-- lease.... the Gi, the X-guard, cross guard, spider guard, pulling guard at all, trainging on a mat, no slamming. How "realistic is that"?
"Isnt this exactly what we learned with the MMA revolution??? "
No, that's what Rorion sold you (and clearly you bought it). What we should have learned is that Brazilians had been doing that type of fighting for many years. Royce far more properly trained for that enviorment and had seen far more of those type of fights than his opponents.
Remember, Dan Severn said that he had never even heard of a triangle choke when Royce slapped one on him. Do you think there was something from the other competitors that Royce or his trainers had never seen before?
Why do you think wrestlers and strikers (particularly wrestlers) did so well after the initial shock?
Royce and his training parters studied Boxing, Wrestling, and even competed in Sambo and Judo (not Royce himself but definitely Rickson, Royler etc.)
"If he doesnt say uncle because he is pinned or thrown, then im sorry, the match is not over, thats just silly."
WTF? Last time I checked being on the bottom of a pin in the UFC often meant your head was being bashed in.
Lots of people have been knocked out by slams (Newto, Tanner, Arona) in MMA AND THEY FIGHT ON A CUSHY MAT! Imagine that on the street.
"Once you throw out as many rules as possible, what really actually works percolates to the top, and that just happens to be BJJ. "
lol. So here we are in 2007 and that's what you see? I see pretty much every top guy in the world (in MMA) training in Wrestling, Striking (Boxing or Muay Thai), and Submission ( i.e. Judo/BJJ/Sambo). Basically creating a sport version of many of the concepts that Bruce Lee outlines in the Tao of JKD (i.e. four ranges-- kicking, punching, clinch, ground grappling).
"PS: You do get awarded for throws and takedowns. If there is no tap, the scoring system takes over, and it already takes into account throws, takedowns, and positional dominance. Seems pretty damn fair to me.
"
The "Positional dominance" point structure is very close to that of BJJ not Wrestling, Judo, or Sambo. I pointed that out earlier. Getting points for the mount, side mount, the back with hooks in (no other rides though), guard passing, guard sweeps, etc. is BJJ structure, period.
Again, the takedown scoring is that of BJJ too. No extra points for high amplitude throws, or throws demostrating more control (in Judo it is asssumed that a throw on to the opponents back could also be a throw on to his head if the thrower so choose), no tech falls or total victories either.
I think the point structure for positions are designed towards getting a submission. Just like the point structure in Judo is designed towards getting an Ippon.
Since the point of the match is to win by submission, if the match goes the time limit, you reward the guys who are able to secure the positions that result in the high level submission attempts (mount, back, side control, etc)
Pinning and high amplitude throws are good skills to have, but do not increase the percentage of submission wins, therefore they are not necessarily as important and gaining and controlling the dominant ground positions.
How about no points . You win by ko from a throw or takedown and by submission. Get rid of the tourney have only superfights.Easiest thing in the world to understand
ADCC is no-gi BJJ.
It was designed to be a rule set under which people of varying grappling disciplines could compete against one another, however, its entire stance on what is effective, what should be scored and what shouldn't, what a dominant position is, etc., are taken right out of BJJ.
It is silly to think that anyone other than BJJ'ers should dominate this sport as it is merely BJJ without the gi, nothing more, nothing less.
"anyway I dont think a olympic medalist is going to enter a trial"
Maybe this is the problem. If the wrestler thinks he is too good to go to trials, that is the problem. He hasn't done anything in Submission wrestling. It's like Roger saying he should be in the olympics because he won adcc.
"How about no points . You win by ko from a throw or takedown and by submission. Get rid of the tourney have only superfights.Easiest thing in the world to understand "
Hehehehe funny and great. That would rule and BJJ would dominate even more. I am sure wrestlers and Judokas would come up with reasons to complain that it is not fair to them even with those "rules".
"anyway I dont think a olympic medalist is going to enter a trial"
Well boo frigging whoo. Who cares it is his loss. If any Judo or Wrestling Olympic medalist thinks he is too good to enter ADCC trials then some one needs to go tell that person that 1. this is whole new world, 2. whole new sport, 3. that so far he has achieved shit in submission wrestling, 4. IN submission wrestling he is NOBODY and 5. just try to place in ADCC first and then and ONLY then come to talk and think such thing. Other than that it is silly.
"The "Positional dominance" point structure is very close to that of BJJ not Wrestling, Judo, or Sambo."
Well boo frigging whoo again. The positional dominance point system happens to be most realistic system there is. Oh gee how about ADCC incorporate limited ground time and stand up's just like they have in Judo to please you. LMAO Now limited ground time with stand up's is what both Judo and Wrestling have. Such NONSENSE has no place in submission wrestling.
ADCC is NOT a no-gi BJJ tourney. It was designed to be a rule set under which people of varying grappling disciplines could compete against one another, however, it relies a lot on system used in BJJ in it's stance on what is effective, what should be scored and what shouldn't, what a dominant position is BECAUSE the system and stance used in BJJ has been proved to be MOST REALISTIC and best. That system then was tweaked a bit to give both Judokas and wrestlers bit of a edge in certain things.
It is not silly at all to think that anyone other than BJJer's could be able to dominate this sport. Now everyone has three options: 1. Use the Judo/Wrestling throw and stall strategy and see how far you get with that 2. You realise that your own art and skill sets it give to you is not all that and go look outside your own art for more techniques and stragies and improve 3. You keep whining and bitching how unfair it is that you and art you represent keeps losing outside their own little sand box.
Unique has just positionaly dominated the correct in a most realistic sort of way.
"Unique has just positionaly dominated the correct in a most realistic sort of way."
No, Unique has just demonstrated that he can not make an arguement without introducing logical fallacies. For instance:
" Oh gee how about ADCC incorporate limited ground time and stand up's just like they have in Judo to please you."
Not onyl is that an Appeal to Ridicule but also a massive strawman attack. AFAICT no one (not me anyway) said that we wanted ADCC to change their rules just that the rules are basically no-gi BJJ and that's why BJJers dominate.
I did give AN EXAMPLE of what kind of rules would be more "style agonistic" but at no point did I (or anyone else AFAICT) suggest that ADCC should actually adopt new rules to make it less of a "no-gi BJJ" tourney.
Of course, Unique's whole arguement falls flat unless he can make it seem like we're all a bunch of judoka's and wrestlers whining about the rules as opposed to the truth... which is that we (speculating) are probably all a bunch of BJJers debating a philosophical point.
To the point, I'm under a Charles Dos Anjos/Royce Gracie (a.k.a Wolfpack BJJ) Blackbelt in Minnesota. But I'm sure Unique thinks I'm from the Hammer House or something.
"Im getting sick of this lame "the rules favor BJJ" argument. Bullshit. ADCC has minimalistic rules, designed to prove who the best sub-grappler is. "
Submission wrestling (as it is today) = no-gi BJJ. Always has, always will. Again, there are many many styles of wrestling in the world (even many that allow submission) and BJJ is the that looks most like the rules in ADCC. If you think otherwise you're just deluded.
"Its the closest thing to a real fight without striking."
Rorion, is that you?
"Why should a match end with a pin? The guy didnt say uncle. "
Then why should the match end in a specificed time? Why not just go no time limits and no points?
DominatorBG,
"Pluh-- lease.... the Gi, the X-guard, cross guard, spider guard, pulling guard at all, trainging on a mat, no slamming. How "realistic is that"?"
Perfectly realistic for a SUB-GRAPPLING match, duh.
" No, that's what Rorion sold you (and clearly you bought it)."
Ummm no, I think Rorion is full of shit and his BJJ history is fabricated.
" What we should have learned is that Brazilians had been doing that type of fighting for many years. "
Oh, you mean, sub-grappling with minimal rules? ;-)
"Royce far more properly trained for that enviorment and had seen far more of those type of fights than his opponents. Remember, Dan Severn said that he had never even heard of a triangle choke when Royce slapped one on him. Do you think there was something from the other competitors that Royce or his trainers had never seen before?"
What does this have to do with ADCC again? Oh yeah, nothing, you are blabbering on and on...
"Why do you think wrestlers and strikers (particularly wrestlers) did so well after the initial shock?"
You still stuck on MMA? Get back on subject.
"Royce and his training parters studied Boxing, Wrestling, and even competed in Sambo and Judo (not Royce himself but definitely Rickson, Royler etc.)"
You have ADD right? Get back to ADCC please.
SDBJJ:"If he doesnt say uncle because he is pinned or thrown, then im sorry, the match is not over, thats just silly."
ADD-KID: "WTF? Last time I checked being on the bottom of a pin in the UFC often meant your head was being bashed in."
Still stuck on MMA I see. Over here, (snaps fingers), pay attention... were talking about ADCC and sub-grappling not MMA.
"Lots of people have been knocked out by slams (Newto, Tanner, Arona) in MMA AND THEY FIGHT ON A CUSHY MAT! Imagine that on the street."
Im all for slams. But youre still stuck on MMA.
SDBJJ:"Once you throw out as many rules as possible, what really actually works percolates to the top, and that just happens to be BJJ. "
"lol. So here we are in 2007 and that's what you see? I see pretty much every top guy in the world (in MMA) training in Wrestling, Striking (Boxing or Muay Thai), and Submission ( i.e. Judo/BJJ/Sambo). Basically creating a sport version of many of the concepts that Bruce Lee outlines in the Tao of JKD (i.e. four ranges-- kicking, punching, clinch, ground grappling). "
Well, speaking of fallacies, that was the longest strawman ive ever seen. Here we are discussing ADCC/sub-grappling and you cant stop running off at the mouth about MMA.
The fact is, the only way ADCC could be more "fair" to wrestlers and judoka is to make it possible to instantly win the match by throwing/takedowns alone or to introduce a progressive point structure for pinning. That is, hold the guy in side control for 5 seconds, you get 1 point, 5 points for 25 seconds, something like that. Thing is, unless you gave them the victory after a set length of time pinning, the matches would be boring as hell. I suppose you could introduce a technical victory, where you automatically win if up by a certain number of points, but that is pretty offensive to BJJers who think it isn't really over until you make him tap.
I'm guessing high level practitioners of Judo/Sambo/Wrestling are more concerned with preparing themselves for upcoming Judo/Sambo/Wrestling events.
Here is the deal:
- Problems number 1 seems to be that there are Judokas and Wrestlers who would like to see more representatives of their respective sports to compete and perhaps do well in ADCC (well at least compete).
Solution: NONE. It is their personal (personal choice of all those Judokas and Wrestlers who don't compete) choice not to compete regardless of what their personal reasons for not competing are and their own loss. Simply put they can compete if they want to and if they don't want to compete then whatever. Rules should be not changed just because some people dont' want to compete. THey got their Olympic Judo and Olympic wrestling already. Let submission wrestling be SUBMISSION wrestling besides due to fact of their Olympic Judo and Olympic wrestling it is not likely they would compete anyway regardless of whatever rules are used.
- Problem number 2 seems to be that rules do not allow people to get win like they win in Judo or in Wrestling.
Point: This is not a Judo competition nor it is a wrestling competition. It is a SUBMISSION wrestling competition and goal is to SUBMIT your opponent. Throws and takedowns are just used as a tool to gain superior position and put your opponent in inferior position. They are just tools to help to get yourself in a position where you can submit your opponent not means to an end.
So in Judo and Wrestling main goal is to get a nice clean throw/takedown. (yes in Judo there are other ways to win matches too but it is very obvious that throws are the MAIN way how matches are won and yes in reality ground grappling time is very limited in Judo competitions)
In Submission Wrestling MAIN goal is to get a submission. As you can see in submission wrestling takedowns and throws are just a tool in way to that submission. You get a submission match is over. You do a technique you get points regardless of what technique it is. That's about it. In SW submission can end up matches. All other techniques just give points and that's the way it should be. All other techiques are just techniques used to get to the submission.
- Now ADCC rules do give points for takedowns and throws. You just can not win by performing simple SINGLE but yet beautiful throw alone. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why you should. This is SUBMISSIN wrestling. Also you can win by just doing throws. Just throw, survive on the ground, throw/takedown him again racking up the points. you should AT LEAST have enough ground skills on the ground to survive in order to rack up point with throws if that is your strategy.
No offence meant but most of the wrestlers just dont have enough ground skills to do that and dont want to train those ground skills so they want rules to be changed in a way they really would not need to. For sure if they do the work they can learn ground game fast.
- ADCC rules do give points for throws.
Also ADCC rules do give points for pins. You get the side mount and hold it you get points. You get the mount and hold it you get points. Ok now as you see you get points for getting to superior pinning position which you can hold. Just getting to the position and losing it immediately does not give any points. you have to be actually able to hold it/pin them.
Now ok you get side mount and can hold/pin it. Nice. then you are supposed to start working towards SUBMISSION. you are NOT supposed to just hold it and STALL. Reason why it does not matter if you can hold it for rest of the day and is not given points is that that is not the main goal of SUBMISSION wrestling. Also it is boring, it is not considered improving and trying for submission and it is PLAIN OUT STALLING and in the end it does you no good anyway.
Who cares if you can hold a position for rest of the day if you can not finish your opponent while doing that. I mean come one as soon as you let go your opponent might finish you. Get the position, establish the control, try to submit is how it currently goes, how points are dealt out and how it should be.
- In essence ADCC rules are almost perfect as they are.
Yeah I can see references about BJJ with the positional hiearchy but that is as realistic as it can get without adding strikes etc. and the positional hierchy system used in BJJ just happens to be realistic and the best system when it comes to ground and that's a fact which has been proven.
If you want to tweak ADCC rules here is how to make them perfect IMHO:
Give more points for HIGH amplitude CLEAR throws/taedowns like maybe 5 points.
At the same time give only negative point for pulling the guard from standing up situation.
No negative points for going to the guard when action is already on the ground.
Also no negative points if you pull guard standing up as a result of trying submission like you jump into guillotine choke, kimura submission hold etc. Has to be real attemps.
some of you are making this more complicated than it has to be
no points
win by ko from a throw/takedown or submission
single match ups no tournament
award bonuses for matches that end in a finish
get rid of the bjj point system