ADCC just another BJJ tourny now

Underground BJJ Ground
61

"The only time BJJ guys back in the day took off the gi was for vale tudo."

Excatly because that was pretty much all they did and pretty much all they trained for.

"There is no such thing as no gi bjj."

Excatly correct. BJJ is BJJ regardless of if it is done with gi or without gi. There is no such thing as gi bjj or no gi bjj. BJJ is just BJJ. Techiques used are same but just adapted to the situation on hand. People trying to claim there is GI BJJ and NO GI BJJ really should try to understand this.

"I dont think anybody heard Helio say "Alright guys, mon wed and fri are gi nights, and tues and thurs are no gi nights"

Hmm he most likely has said something along to that like "Today and day after that are vale tudo training and on friday bring your gi's." Anyway time that is pretty much excatly how training in BJJ club I train is divided.

"Just because your still applying your techniques in a no gi situation, doesnt mean its still BJJ."

WTF are you being serious. Now you are obviously trolling. Just because you take your jacket off does not mean everything you have trained, skills, balance, positional hierarchy, whole strategy suddenly drastically changes or changes to completely something else.

  1. IF YOU TRAIN JUDO AND TAKE OFF YOUR JUDO GI AND GO GRAPPLE YOU ARE STILL DOING JUDO.

OTHER THAN THAT IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY JUDOKA OR SAMBO FIGHTER TO EVER PARTICIPATE IN ADCC REPRESENTING JUDO BECAUSE ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC THEY NO LONGER WOULD BE USING THEIR JUDO.

ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC FEDOR IS ALSO NOT DOING/USING JUDO NOR IN ANYWAY REPRESENTING JUDO/SAMBO IN HIS MMA FIGHTS.

  1. IF YOU TRAIN BJJ TAKE YOUR GI OFF AND GO GRAPPLE YOU ARE STILL DOING BJJ.

OTHER THAN THAT IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY BJJ FIGHTER TO EVER DO ADCC REPRESENTING BJJ BECUASE ACCORDING TO YOU THEY ARE NO LONGER DOING BJJ THE VERY SECOND THEY TAKE OFF THEIR GI AND GRAPPLE.

  1. SO IF I EVER SEE LET'S SAY OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL WRESTLER COME TO OUR BJJ CLUB PUT ON A GI AND GRAPPLE AGAINST US AND HEAR HIM SAYING THAT REASON WHY HE DOES SO WELL IS THAT HE IS USING HIS OLYMPIC LEVEL WRESTLING I OBVIOUSLY ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC HAVE TO TELL HIM THAT: NO NO NO THE MOMENT YOU PUT ON YOUR GI YOU STOPPED DOING AND USING YOUR OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL LEVEL WRESTLING SKILLS.

ok caps lock off

I hope you now see how absolutely ridiculous your claim is.

"Its like a tennis player playing raquetball. He may know how to swing proper and move the right way, but they are still different sports."

Ofcource they are different sports. In that situation what he is doing is being A TENNIS PLAYER PLAYING RAQUETBALL. He does not suddenely become baseball player or ping pong player or whatever. He still is and remains TENNIS PLAYER PLAYING RAQUETBALL. He is using his tennis skills and propably doing ok but not stellar.

See we got JUDO PLAYERS GRAPPLING IN ADCC, WE GOT WRESTLERS GRAPPLING IN ADCC, WE GOT BJJ PLAYERS GRAPPLING IN ADCC JUST LIKE IN YOUR EXAMPLE YOU GOT TENNIS PLAYER PLAYING RAQUETBALL.

Bottom line: Judo is judo regarless if you take the gi off or not, BJJ is BJJ regardless of if you take your gi off or not and wrestling is wrestling regardless if you put gi on or not.

Now let me ask you something. Your gappling backround is wrestling, is it not? you sure sound and talk like every other wrestler there.

62

Someone seriosly need to go tell Rhadi Ferguson that guy with nick LiitleC just educated us all that what Rhadi did and used on ADCC was not Judo at all just because he was not wearing a gi.

63

LittleC

Submission Wrestling is first and foremost competition format. There used to be grappling art closely resembling submission wrestling (but even it was not called submission wrestling) but it has been practically dead for a long time. I know that some people are desperately trying to somehow turn that competition format into new martial art called submission wrestling.

Again Submission wrestling is just a competition format where different grapplers from different diciplines (be it Judo, BJJ, Sambo, wrestling etc.) compete against each other.

There are people who go into Judo, BJJ or wrestling and learn some skills plus crosstrain in these arts and then have these clubs where they train without gi and label what they do Submission Wrestling.

They all have sloppy skills are jack of all trades master of nothing and are just doing poor man's Judo, BJJ, Wrestling or whatever their primary grappling backround is meaning the arm hey got their basics from becuase IT IS ALL ABOUT THE BASICS. Everything else is build on basics.

Luta Livre already tried to do what you are trying to do but they lost against BJJ in all forms of combat.

64

"Excatly because that was pretty much all they did and pretty much all they trained for. "

So everybody who trained BJJ with Helio did Vale Tudo? Thats funny. lol @ every school in brazil being full of vale tudo fighters. I'm sure the Gracie Academy in rio had industrial sized washers and driers so they could dry their speedos.

"Hmm he most likely has said something along to that like "Today and day after that are vale tudo training and on friday bring your gi's." "

Are we seriously debating what Helio MIGHT have said back then. I was just using that as example to illustrate how ridiculous your statement was. But TTT for docters lawyers and other businessmen (99 percent of the clientel) training for Vale Tudo in their speedos. Thanks for the history lesson.

"WTF are you being serious. Now you are obviously trolling. Just because you take your jacket off does not mean everything you have trained, skills, balance, positional hierarchy, whole strategy suddenly drastically changes or changes to completely something else."

I never said that. If somebody was watching a adcc match with BJJ guys, and asked me if what they were doing is BJJ, I would say "No, thats submission wrestling", because BJJ is with the gi.

"OTHER THAN THAT IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY JUDOKA OR SAMBO FIGHTER TO EVER PARTICIPATE IN ADCC REPRESENTING JUDO BECAUSE ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC THEY NO LONGER WOULD BE USING THEIR JUDO. "

Noooo, they can still represent Judo whatever they want to represent, but the fact remains that it is a submission wrestling event, not a judo or bjj event.

"Judo is judo regarless if you take the gi off or not, BJJ is BJJ regardless of if you take your gi off or not and wrestling is wrestling regardless if you put gi on or not. "

Respectfully, we should just agree to disagree on this.

"Now let me ask you something. Your gappling backround is wrestling, is it not?"

I'm a purple belt Miss Cleo.

"Someone seriosly need to go tell Rhadi Ferguson that guy with nick LiitleC just educated us all that what Rhadi did and used on ADCC was not Judo at all just because he was not wearing a gi. "

Thanks for that worthless post.

"Luta Livre already tried to do what you are trying to do but they lost against BJJ in all forms of combat."

Pinduka lost. But I'm not trying to defend luta livre.

And as soon as you tell me what I'm trying to do with Luta Livre, I'll respond properly.

65

Excatly because that was pretty much all they did and pretty much all they trained for.

"So everybody who trained BJJ with Helio did Vale Tudo? Thats funny. lol @ every school in brazil being full of vale tudo fighters. I'm sure the Gracie Academy in rio had industrial sized washers and driers so they could dry their speedos."

Pretty much yes. You are obviously missing one important point: sport BJJ as we know it did not exist at all. BJJ was trained for self defence and fighting purposed. Second important point is that BJJ people used to have extremely bad reputation in Brazil for being bunch of tough guys looking for fights. I still laugh at few very old pic's I ahve seen of people walking in discos wearing only but Bad Boy speedos. LOl I know Brazis has very warm climate but come one lol no wonder BJJ people used to have and even still have bad reputation.

Now while people trained/train everything and emphasis was more on vale tudo asp?ect of BJJ ofcource it did not mean that everyone automatically went and fought in Vale Tudo matches. It is crazy to assume such thing. I do train all aspects/sides of BJJ including the the Vale Tudo aspect and no I don't fight Vale Tudo. I just like training and training all 3 sides/aspect of BJJ is composed of self-defence/sport BJJ/Vale Tudo. Remember the triangle logo (not referring to sankaku jime but an actual triangle).

"Are we seriously debating what Helio MIGHT have said back then."

Well I am not you are the one who claimed such thing in negative fashion meaning that for sure he did not say this and that. I just pointed out that it is absolutely crazy to claim such thing.

"But TTT for docters lawyers and other businessmen (99 percent of the clientel) training for Vale Tudo in their speedos. Thanks for the history lesson."

You obviously have no clue about Brazil and how things are there. You think about this looking at your own country and basing your argument on that. For your information things are much different in Brazil and for the record fact is that some of the most famous students of Carlson Gracie and old school Vale Tudo fighters are bankers, doctors, lawyers etc.

Just for the record it really does not mean the same to be a doctor, banker. lawyer in Brazil that it means in USA. While in USA that pretty much gurantees you certain level of income and life style in Brazil it does not gurantee any of that.

"I never said that. If somebody was watching a adcc match with BJJ guys, and asked me if what they were doing is BJJ, I would say "No, thats submission wrestling", because BJJ is with the gi."

Then WTF are you saying. You simply put wrote that when a person takes off his gi and grapples he is no longer doing BJJ.

"Noooo, they can still represent Judo whatever they want to represent, but the fact remains that it is a submission wrestling event, not a judo or bjj event."

Ofcource it is a submission wrestling competition. There never was any argument about that. All these guys compete in competition format called Submission Wrestling. That does not make them Submission Wrestlers they are still Judoka's, wrestlers, BJJers who just want to go and compete under Submission Wrestling rules/format.

"Judo is judo regarless if you take the gi off or not, BJJ is BJJ regardless of if you take your gi off or not and wrestling is wrestling regardless if you put gi on or not. "

Respectfully, we should just agree to disagree on this.

OK seriosly how an earth can you disagree with that?

"I'm a purple belt Miss Cleo."

you can be black belt for all I care what I asked was that which is the first grappling style you trained in? Is it wrestling?

66

Look, just keep thinking that bjj schools in rio were filled up with people wearing speedos training vale tudo, and lets go on seperate paths.

If I dont stop posting on this thread now, my head might implode.

If you would like to continue this conversation via email (since its just a one on one conversation now) my email is TexasFaxiaRoxa@yahoo.com

Peace

And TTT for the 99 percent of bjj pictures being in gis, and for the industrial sized speedo washer.

67

"you can be black belt for all I care what I asked was that which is the first grappling style you trained in? Is it wrestling? "

No, you didnt. You asked me what my grappling background was, and implied it was wrestling.

68

So in your opinion Judo is with the gi and Judo stops being Judo if it is done without gi and becomes some obsecure new art "submission wrestling" ( a Judoka competing in adcc for example).

Oh gee nice and I thought what Fedor uses in his MMA matches is Judo/Sambo.

So in your opinion BJJ is with the gi and BJJ stops being BJJ if it is done without gi etc.

Oh gee and I though Roger Gracie is from the famous Gracie family (you know the family who developed BJJ) and is using his family art when he grapples in ADCC.

With all respect I seriosly do not see anything backing up your argument and I disagree with it absolutely competely. There is nothing to discuss anymore so let's just agree to disagree.

Peace and out,

Unique

ps. "Look, just keep thinking that bjj schools in rio were filled up with people wearing speedos training vale tudo, and lets go on seperate paths. "

No they obviously were not. They were not filled with people to beging with and Rio was not filled with BJJ schools at all. Just a relatively small bunch of guys training BJJ and ALL aspects/sides of BJJ.

p.ps just for the record there is no such martia art/grappling style as Submission Wrestling. There used to be but the art in question died long time ago and was not even called Submission Wrestling. Submission wrestling is a competition format called Submission Wrestling that uses certain set of rules.

Maybe I need to illustrate my final point:

  1. Without Judo competitions there would still be Judo and Judo would still exist as Judo is just not a name for some competition format but an actual grappling art.

  2. Without Submission Wrestling competitions (ADCC) there would not be any submission wrestling to talk and debate about because Submission Wrestling is just a nae for a competition format using set rules and not an actual grapplin art like Judo, Wrestling and BJJ are.

  3. Someone said something very wise so I'll loan him a bit.

If you consider he gi to be an integral part of judo/bjj, then no, it's not judo/bjj if you remove the gi.

I consider the overall techniques to be the essence of judo and bjj regardless of sportswear, then yes, it's still judo/bjj if you remove the gi.

Now you obviously think and argue that gi is intergral part of both Judo and BJJ and the main thing.

Now I concider the overall techniques, strategies and concepts to be the essence of Judo and BJJ regardless of sportswear so Judo is still Judo and BJj is still BJJ if you remove the gi.

69

TTT for getting your point in last.

Hit me up though, TexasFaxiaRoxa@yahoo.com

70

Judo without Gi is not Judo 100%, because almost all judo techniques need the grip of a Gi.

Wrestling with a Gi is not Wrestling. They are trained to fight without gripping lapels.

GrecoRoman with a Gi is not GrecoRoman. Is Judo without lapel techniques.

Bjj originally was developed to use Gi and NoGi. Why? because it was develop for SelfDefense (Gi) and Valetudo fights (NoGi) and not for sport competitions like today. Thats why lot of people says that Bjj is mainly a strategy and a set of techniques, because it can be used with and without the Gi.

Another thing is that you can adapt your Judo game, for example, for submission wrestling. Or your Sambo game. Or your Bjj game. Or your wrestling game. For example, Karo has adapted his Judo game very well to mma. But is a exception and personally i think is a bit more Greco than Judo without Gi. But is my opinion.

But the reality is that the art that has adapted better to submission game was, is and perhaps, will be, Bjj. The reality is what it is and you only has to read the number of bjj black belts at ADCC 2007.

And the last thing. I can asume that Bjj is with Gi. Ok. but then i can say that one thing is the art, another if this art can be adapted to submission game and another thing is if this art has been successfuly adapted to submission wrestling :-).

71

Just one finite detail regarding Karo: In greco you can't use your legs to trip so it is not greco it is Judo adapted for mma.

72

biggun

thanks for your explanation :-)

73

anytime:)

74

"Someone seriosly need to go tell Rhadi Ferguson that guy with nick LiitleC just educated us all that what Rhadi did and used on ADCC was not Judo at all just because he was not wearing a gi. "
No need. Rhadi said it himself in this week's judo podcast.

http://www.thejudopodcast.com/MMS/Program/index2.asp

A style (sport) is just a set of rules. When you take the gi off it's no longer Judo.

You can't use one "style" under the rules of another style. That doesn't even make sense. Can you use football in a basketball game? Can you use Tennis in a racketball match? Can you use track and field in a basketball game? NO. NO. NO.

You may have learned certian skills while training or competing in another sport but anything legal under the rules of that sport is a move of that sport.
Marcelo Garcia doing an armbar at the NY Open Judo tourney is just a guy doing a judo move. Mark Kerr doing a hip throw in a freestyle match isn't him doing a Greco move.

With that said, terms like "BJJ" or "Wrestling" are often blanket terms that people use to refer to more than one rule set (style). Wrestling generally refers to 3 styles: Folkstyle, FreeStyle, and Greco. BJJ in 2007 refers to Sport BJJ and No-Gi BJJ (a.k.a. submission wrestling).

Therefore ADCC is just a no-gi BJJ tourney just like the Mundials are a Sport BJJ tourney.

"GrecoRoman with a Gi is not GrecoRoman. Is Judo without lapel techniques. "

It's not Judo anymore than Sambo is Judo or BJJ is Judo. Just because you're in a gi doesn't make it Judo.

When you take off the gi it's no longer BJJ because the rules are different.

75

My gawd this is idiotic.

A piece of cloth cannot change your style people!!!

If a guy has trained nothing but BJJ his whole life, and he takes his gi off, he doesnt suddenly magically become a non-BJJ fighter.

What the F is he then, if not a BJJ fighter?

Doesnt matter if he enters a judo comp or wrestling comp, he is still doing BJJ because its all he knows.

So the grips are missing in ADCC, so what, doesnt matter. He uses a subset of his techniques which dont require grip. He adapts. But its still BJJ because thats all he knows and its all he has practiced.

I cant believe this is even being argued.