ken can be cool and he can be the biggest jerk imaginable. personality aside, he was very good in pancrase but that style is quite a bit different than adcc. much looser
im not a hater of him....i never met him and dont know anyone who met him so I wouldnt have heard what he was like in person...just from what i hear and read bro. My opinion changed him...I liked him as a fighter, but not as a person...for example...I am a huge San Francisco 49er fan, but never liked players with attitudes. Terrell Owens is the best example. he played on my favorite team and I hated him as a person, but respected him as a player. Peace bro.
I've met Ken twice. Both times he was very cool and accomodating when I asked him advice on ACL tare rehab.
As for ADCC, I couldn't make a prediction for Shamrock but I've often wondered why more UFC guys don't give it a shot. I could see Couture doing well. It seems like a good pay day and you don't even have to get punched in the face.
"There are not alot of leg-locks in ADCC. Ken is a Leg-submission expert. Proven."
Really? Proven in his WWF character?
1998 is holding on line 2. It wants it's subject matter back.
First you said: "Has Kerr EVER submitted anyone in MMA?"
Then you said: "I never said Vitor and Mark didn't."
"Just because ken Shamrock doesn't tap out people with subs often in MMA doesn't mean he can't do fine in ADCC."
Well that doesnt prove much. He seemed to get dominated by Tito in wrestling and on the ground throughout the whole fight without offering anything in return. Even if he was getting hit, if had something to offer, we would have seen it.
"Seems like you are just looking to argue with individual comments rather than realize that you afgree with my overall point."
Most people on this board dont appreciate the level that has shot up in ADCC competition. Alot of fighters did ok in the first few years but now the show is run by those who specialise in grappling.
Bottom line, Ken hasnt shown anything that would suggest that he would be a force in ADCC. If anything there is more to show against it. To win in ADCC, you either have to have great wrestling skills or you have to be great off your back. Ken doesnt have either.
At best, he might catch some unknown guy in the first round with a leg lock - and only because that guy chose to exchange leg locks instead of jumping the hell out of there. People at that level catch on quick and for the remainder of his matches, the more experienced opponents will just avoid his leg attempts by keeping an eye on their feet. He will then get swept by a good bjj guy or held down by a good wrestler. He's bound to meet someone like that in ADCC and lose quick.
Ken would never compete in ADCC because he is way too big of a star for a grappling tournament. With that being said, people always underestimate Ken's grappling ability.
Oleg didnt have the kindest words for kens grappling when I met him in person. He said frank was a much better grappler and ken was too hardheaded to learn.
Nice that you leave out what I said after. That being that since that match he hasnt shown that much improvement.
"This is Royce we're talking about here, a guy who did this stuff his whole life."
By the way, Royce would also get murdered in ADCC. The competition has shot up that high there that its those who specialise in its format that can consistently win.
Is this meant to be amusing?
Ken would get massacred there. What are you thinking?
What people dont realize is that ADCC is not you go there and whoever the better submission fighter is wins. You must change your entire game for the format.
Nog and Rumina both annihilate people with their subs in MMA because they live in the transition. In ADCC theyre 10x less effective. Its a much slower, more methodical and boring style that takes all the rules and point system into account. Thats why Arona is untouchable in it right now.
Even the Ken Shamrock of his prime would likely at best get a leglock on an unknown and then be swept or held down for a points loss. Now the HW division is so stacked its not even debatable.
If frank Shamrock Tore Ralph Gracie's Knee up with a Heel hold and Taped Roy Harris out with a ankel lock and always if asked if him and Ken ever roll says Ken would kill him then i would think Ken has some real Skills.
from what i hear he is Fuck strong and can submit you with pretty much anything he can think of.
"i think he would get schooled."
As a little old man once said in the VFW, BINGO.
"1) That was ONE fight. I could bring up one fight he looked good in and use that as a reason he would do good in ADCC. Would that convince you?"
Well do that and prove your point. Yes tell me what Ken has that will tell us he will win at ADCC. His strength? Plenty of strong guys in ADCC. His leg locks? Plenty of guys who either know leg locks or know enough to STAY THE HELL OUT of trouble - which is the REAL reason why you dont see leg locks in ADCC.
Tell me where Ken has shown ELITE wrestling or tell me where Ken has shown ELITE ability off his back as these are the tools you NEED to excel in ADCC. But you cant and you wont. You dont seem to understand what submission wrestling truly is as I previously stated.
I have brought up points explaining the format that ADCC has now become over the last years to prove mey point. And as I said, Ken hasnt done anything to prove it, but only shown reasons against it which I pretty much accounted for. It seems obvious that you dont want to admit your wrong or you're trolling. Neither would surprise me.
"Is this meant to be amusing?"
Dude, I am starting to think it is.
"If frank Shamrock Tore Ralph Gracie's Knee up with a Heel hold and Taped Roy Harris out with a ankel lock..."
Oh man the bullshit that gets spread is amazing.
"You don't need ELITe wrestling skills or abillity off your back."
I disagree, I stated in an earlier post that fighters such as Ortiz or Ricco did good in EARLIER ADCC, which was 4 years ago, but since then the sport has evolved and you dont seem to understand this.
"Just did and i'd like to see you explain how Mark Robinson is an elite level wrestler and has an elite level guard."
I dont have to because Mark Robinson lost in 2003 as did Monson being surpassed by evolved grapplers. Robinson won in 2001 which was three years ago. Let me repeat that, 3 years ago. Things are different now. The sport has evolved.
Ricco got submitted by Pe de Pano in 2001 via triangle choke. Pe de Pano did very well in 2003. Vitor hasnt won much in ADCC except for a few worked matches in 2001.
Your examples are of competitors who did well in EARLIER ADCC competitions, but if you were following the sport you would see that things are different now. Most articles on BJJ and submission wrestling emphasize how these sports have evolved at a dramatic rate over the last few years. You have to understand what this means. Simply watch ADCC 2000 and compare the under 88kg or under 99kg class competition to what you see in 2003 as an example. I would say compare all weight classes but it will be more obvious for you to notice it in these ones as you dont seem to be a person who understands sub wrestling very well.
I am talking about the ELITE guys who can get high rankings on a consitent basis. Baret Yoshida is an elite guard player who consistent ranks in ADCC competition. At the heavier weight classes you got guys like Einemo or Dean Lister who are also great off their backs. Lister, by the way, would kill Shamrock in leg locks any day of the week. As far as wrestlers go you have someone like Mark Kerr who is, and I think most would agree, an elite wrestler. The only time he lost was in the superfight in 2003, but he was in horrible shape.
Bottom line, Ken might have had something to offer in ADCC pre-2000, but now it has become its own sport with its own strategies that differ from MMA and even BJJ and these are things that Ken hasnt kept up on, or at least hasnt shown evidence that he has. Anything else is pure speculation.
"...and that you don't have to submit ANYBODY to do well."
I never said you have to submit people to win at ADCC. I said swept and takedown/control. I agree with you here.
Well it seems you dont agree with me that submission grappling has evolved, despite what every bjj or submission website will readily tell you. It doesnt matter if there has been only one tourny since 2001, the bottom line is that there have come grapplers who have specialized in submission grappling over the last few years. And I firmly believe that Ken cannot hang with this new generation of grapplers.
And it seems that instead of giving me reasons why Ken Shamrock would win ADCC, you give other irrelevant reasons about other fighters whom have no association with Ken, well except for Tito who competely spanked Ken in grappling. And I unfortunately have been suckered into arguing on these reasons. On the other hand, I have given reasons why Ken would most likely not do good in ADCC, particularily his poor performance in the wrestling and grappling department against Tito.
So simply answer this, give me some reasons that would indicate that Ken would do well in ADCC besides your inner gut feeling that he would. I have already dismissed his strength and leg locks as reasons so tell me some others. And heresay from the gym isnt a reason.
So because he can wrestle, he knows subs, he's in good shape, he can grapple, its about match ups and how it plays out are the reasons? Well the same can be said about a million other guys so its not a reason specific to Ken. This is otherwise termed as termed "speculation".
This thread is about whether he can do good in ADCC or not. Thats why I say "give me reason why he would do good" because I would really like to hear them. I say that "he lost to Tito, is old, has weak leg locks" because these are the closest indicators we have to estimate his possible performance.
From what I have seen in Ken's performance in the last few years, I have come to conclude that he wouldnt do good in todays ADCC format. He might win one or two matches as I stated earlier, but he will inevitably have to face someone who has got his shit down in sub wrestling and thus not take the whole tourny. This is my point.
Obivously, nothing I say will change your mind, and ofcourse the same goes for me. Peace.
"And clear something up for me, what was so different about the format in the 2003 ADCC vs the one before it? You keep claiming there was an evolution, please explain it to me."
Well to start off, there are newer techniques. Techniques that didnt exist in earlier tournies. From these new techniques came new strategies how to handle them. For example, in 2000 people were getting swept by half guard all the time. In 2001 this was reduced dramatically with new counters being introduced. This has been building off itself very quickly because the sport is very young so it still has a ways to go before it plateaus.
In 2003 you see a combination of things, people now take advantage of the scoring systems. For starters, there is the aspect of takedowns and defence. Theres no score if you turn to your knees. If you shoot, you have to drive for 3 seconds before you are allowed to fall to guard. Pe de Pano does this alot. And in general, alot of BJJ have improved dramatically in their takedowns than what you will see in earlier ADCC competition. Some attributed it to Darryl Gholar as he teaches in more gyms than just BTT. Them getting better at takedowns might not seem much to you, but when you have an entire generation of grapplers who only did leg trips now being able to shoot a decent double, it marks improvement. Someone like Shamrock could very well be taken down by a "bjj guy".
Then there are those who can really offer a much better offence off their backs as I previously stated. Its much harder to attack from your back in no gi than it is with the gi and this is why alot of wrestlers did good in the earlier ADCCs. Now its mostly BJJ guys who win the competition. Before it was only Baret yoshida who was really dangerous, now you see guys like Garcia, Bravo, Werdum, Cacareco, etc. who can really catch you as soon as they are on their backs.
We saw people show novelties in ADCC than werent shown before - people who came into the tourny for the first time and surprised people. Eddie Bravo has said that Garcia's attacking from the back is years ahead of everyone else. Dean Lister is making leg locks work at a high level in sub grappling - something no one else has been able to do. We saw Eddie Bravo show a style of techniques no one had really seen. Jacare's overall athletism got him second place.
In previous shows, most of the grapplers were rather generic and he who just had it all together on that given day would win. Now its got to the point, and I am quoting Shaolin who told me this in person, "if you dont know the GAME of the other guy you will be caught very fast." I think I will take Shaolin's view in sub wrestling over yours. You have to follow submission wrestling all the time now if you are gonna win because its changing so fast and new games are being developed. Evidently, this was one of his reasons for converting into MMA full time.
Does that answer it for you? If not then I suggest you read up some sub wrestling and BJJ sites for more info as I am no longer in the mood to argue with someone about ADCC whom really doesnt understand whats going on in it.
While I like your reasoning El Guapo, Ken would still get mightily beaten in ADCC now.
Biggy, that's good analysis of ADCC evolution. the half-guard was Vitor and Arona'a bread and butter, but wasn't able to be copied as effectively by other fighters in years after, mainly because the general grappling knowledge levels are going up all the time.