been a while since i visit or post.
was wondering if anyone does destructions(against boxing punches) and pulls them off against good fighters. i suck but i can land it on people just starting out but againsst a competition level boxer i get my ass handed to me when i try. - is it something to keep working on or discard all together?
Destructions is a pretty broad term,but I see what you're getting at...
Use it when you can,when you can't,let it go. Assume you need to be at the same level as your opponent to pull off anything. If you're not "competition level boxer" level,you'll be luck to pull off anything,let alone a destruction...
Destructions are like armbars; sometimes they happen, sometimes you transition to something else.
Destructions also require you to STOP and hold still for a second...it's tough to do that live without eating leather.
They ARE, however, a good way of dealing with folks who own centerline on you.
Destructions work if you're doing them on your sister in the living room. But against a pumped up baddie trying to see that some harm comes to you and moving around, not so much. :-P
Widespreadpanic:
I disagree. They occur a lot in sparring. If you know how to shield, just raise your arm a tad higher, and it's a destruction. If you miss, you're still covered.
It's a very misunderstood technique because people think you have to "aim" the elbow at your opponent's oncoming fist. If that's your concept of what a destruction is, you've missed the point.
I've said this alot,you need to remember that "self defense" is more than MMA,or fighting a meth addled brawler. What if you're at a Christmas party and Uncle gets drunk and decides to test your stuff? You need non-lethal stuff in your toolbox sometimes.
OK,are we talking elbow destructions here,or a "gunting" type destruction? The "scissors" type is actually more of a knife technique,I don't know if I've ever pulled that one off on a skilled opponent,don't think it's worth it (without the knife). An elbow destruction works well used with the "crazy Monkey" defense.
One area where people don't use them enough is against kicks. I actually use them MORE on the legs than the arms.
4 Ranges - Widespreadpanic:
I disagree. They occur a lot in sparring. If you know how to shield, just raise your arm a tad higher, and it's a destruction. If you miss, you're still covered.
It's a very misunderstood technique because people think you have to "aim" the elbow at your opponent's oncoming fist. If that's your concept of what a destruction is, you've missed the point.
I think you are defining "destruction" down to the point that the term becomes meaningless almost. It's like when people say trapping works but define it down to grabbing a guy while you are going for the clinch.
They can be done live. I've been able to pull off guntings and destructions while sparring. I use the elbow to the fist destruction a lot. Pulling off a gunting against an active punch can be challenging. You need good timing, targeting and set ups. However, I find them a lot easier to sneak them in as a counter to grabs (i.e. Collar/Neck ties).
banco:
If my elbow connects with my partner's fist, that's a destruction in my book.
4 Ranges - analyze what you're trying to do with a destruction...
You're trying to intersect a movement of your upper arm with a small quickly moving object. All 'percussion' type movements are reliant on ballistics, extreme accuracy, connecting at a 90 degree angle to the surface of the target for max force (i.e. not grazing). It requires more than the usual amount of distancing, angulation, footwork, targeting, ranging than something like a swing or even a jab.
Meanwhile, you're 'wasting' a strike on something which 'may or may not' be effective on any particular opponent.
Yes, if you're just standing around and a guy reaches for you to mess with your hat or flick your cigarette, you can time it to hit his arm. But not in an actual skirmish.
Roy Harris may be able to do them, but for 99% of guys, it's an 'only in the movies' kind of technique. It's much too reliant on attributes, meaning if you're 10x the fighter than your opponent then go ahead. Otherwise you're better off with more reliable stuff.
Watch the Dog Brothers knife sparring with wooden dowels. You'd think they'd be able to defang, but they can't they miss 80-90% of the time the throw a slash or a jab withi it, and they have added reach with the weapon.
4 Ranges - banco:
If my elbow connects with my partner's fist, that's a destruction in my book.
Sure if you have a high guard you'll have occasions where their fist finds your elbow but I think its a stretch to call that FMA style destructions. Plus assuming you are sparring boxers or anyone whose wearing gloves they are not likely to have much of an effect. So you'd be leaving yourself open to body shots etc. for little gain if your opponent is wearing gloves.
Was going to give a lengthy response here...but, nah, just a waste of time. Think I'll go play some Call of Duty instead.
"Plus assuming you are sparring boxers or anyone whose wearing gloves they are not likely to have much of an effect."
Nope. Even through gloves. If I can pull them off, they work for me. MMA gloves, boxing gloves, don't matter. If YOU can't do it, then you're speaking only for yourself. Don't make your inabilities EVERYONE else's.
Scott:
DUUUUDE, Modern Warfare 2 is out in November!! So psyched.
"Otherwise you're better off with more reliable stuff."
"Reliable" is relative to YOU. Too many people on this forum, for too long, make something "non-functional" only because they can't pull it off live time. Your non-functionality is you own business.
Yes, I've pulled off the backfist to the crazy bone destruction. It's not high percentage, in my experience. I've checked kicks with my knee in sparring and checked punches with my elbow. I've never pulled off the gunting to the bicep, ever.
IMO, none of the destructions should supercede evasive tactics such as good footwork, angulation, head movement, and strategic counter-punching. In a real situation, if you have a significant advantage over your opponent and have the opportunity, by all means go for it, but I wouldn't put them on the front burner.
I think the success rate increases, like any other technique, with how developed the person's skill set is. Like Matt Thornton used to say years ago about having a solid delivery system, if a person is skilled, they will be able to pull things off. An armbar looks the same whether it is done by a world champion black belt or by a decent recreational blue belt, but get on the mat with them and you'll quickly see who has the greater skill set. I think it's the same with the FMA tactics. Show a skilled pro boxer how to destroy punches and his attributes and timing will make it so that he can pull off guntings in fractional beats.
To tell the truth, the highest percentage shots I get from FMA are the eye jab, ear slap and groin slap. I can pull them off pretty regularly, and I'm not a seasoned fighter by any means.
elbow destruction all the time....
good footwork and a knowledge of distance and timing you should be pulling these off all the time.
too many people use a traditional boxers hand positioning and range and try to do destructions.... it wont work.
jkd4200 - elbow destruction all the time....
good footwork and a knowledge of distance and timing you should be pulling these off all the time.
too many people use a traditional boxers hand positioning and range and try to do destructions.... it wont work.
Could you elaborate on what you mean by that? I use the Paul Vunak-ish hands real high pose...
yep... like vunak, with almost a thai style hand position.
the one i get all the time is doing a boxers shoulder roll (like when a cross is thrown at you) and do the shoulder roll but lift my elbow.
range is everything... and just like Bruce said, "the most important thing is footwork, footwork, footwork."
its really a lost art... mma is taking over and there are only a few guys that know how to keep range. A. Silva and Machida being the best. Georges is actually really good at range as well.
The only way I could see doing it against a boxer is if you were a far better boxer than you opponent. In that case you might as well go for better targets on your counters.
Though I make one exception, if a guy only leaves open arm targets cause he's too busy defending the more important ones, then go for it. For instance a if a guy fights in the Philly shell, it's pretty common in boxing to punch him in the lead arm until he raises it.