Leg locks work in submission grappling where there is no striking allowed
Leg locks donât work in MMA where striking is allowed
Leg locks work in combat sambo where there is striking allowed.
Is it because of the shoes?
Probably the shoes help the most and the gi top helps absorb sweat too
Paul Harris might have something to say about the second part
Facts.
The injuries in heel hooks are far more commonly caused by the guy getting tapped not knowing how to defend, not knowing when to tap, or not tapping when they know they should.
Learn how to hide your heel. Learn the position your knee should be relative to your heel and hip. Tap when a lower belt puts you in a heel hook.
Itâs so hard to injure someone who is competent in defense with a heel hook.
Lol. Bro, you can tap and no one is getting crippled for life from a heel hook.
Because contrary to popular belief, Renzo schools didnât really teach any of the stuff you see today. Just basic leg locks, which at the time was more than anyone else. If you didnât have a direct influence from John, after he started teaching legs to the main class, youâll have no more knowledge than anyone else.
I agree with most of what you said, except the part about wrestlers not getting heel hooked by a hobbiest. I have seen it numerous times, at as high a level as an all American. Wrestling a guy whoâs willing to be on his back is an entirely different animal for a wrestler.
Itâs a lot more tricky than that.
The evidence is spotty for MMA, we have some guys whoâve had tremendous success with leg locks, some guys who have failed spectacularly.
The different leg entanglements vary wildly in their application to MMA. In descending order of safety to strikes:
- cross ashi (aka honey hole, saddle, etc.)
- actually quite safe from strikes, especially if you have the secondary leg controlled
- obviously crushed bottom cross ashi is a different beast
- backside positions (bs 50/50, bs cross ashi, heavy reaps where your opponent is facing away from you)
- again, quite safe. These ones go from safe to unsafe quickly though if the uke can backstep to regular 50/50, top cross ashi, or top stoner control
- slx or straight ashi
- pretty safe, you have a wedge at the hip you can extend
- regular 50/50 and double outside ashi
- these ones are really high risk IMO because uke is very square and close to you, and also has some hip mobility
What people donât seem to be grasping yet in MMA, but is starting to become understood in BJJ, is that the real value of leg lock positions is threatening the break, and if they defend getting on top. When guys get fucked up itâs when they are trying to force subs when the uke is defending.
Well, to be fair I also do zero standing passes and Iâm a heavyweight. Jiu jitsu is very different at the hobby level for guys over 230. A bunch of guys at our school study all of the Danaher and Gordon videos and they are always in leg entanglements with each other. Iâve never been in a leg entanglement that I didnât initiate in order to try something. I genuinely donât understand why youâd be so loose while rolling to get into all these weird positions. Again Iâm a big guy and apply constant forward pressure while rolling. Maybe all our guys are terrible, thatâs always a possibility lol.
I see. All of the Renzo guys I train with are either peers with John or trained directly under him. In the pre-John days I was a white belt/baby blue belt and not in the nyc metro yet. So by the time I got into the Renzo bubble the dds had already been going a while.
But on the point of heel hooks being dangerous, almost all of the danger comes from being able to control the position and isolate the leg. If that happens and your opponent doesnt have good heel slips then you can hurt them badly
But most competent people are good at hiding heel, fighting hands, protecting knee line, etc and itâs hard to get a strong bite on the heel. And if you/your opp get deep on a heel hook, you should obviously not rip on it like any other sub.
- also, i saw a comment saying wrestling keeps you out of heel hook territory. I think itâs the opposite. Wrestlers often open themselves to leg entanglements when they apply downward pressure. Itâs usually relatively easy to invert under into the legs
Theyâre getting harder to finish in general now that people are comfortable defending.
This. Iâve seen so many guys try to spin out of heel hooks (often in the wrong direction) and itâs terrifying to watch. Know when youâre in danger, have an awareness of your body, and tap early.
Every time I read or hear entanglement
I remember a brown belt that I knew took 7-8 years off and then came back to the gym and was fucking wrecking people with leg locks. He literally sucked at Jiujitsu, but everyone else sucked more at leglocks so thatâs all he did.
He was injuring people left and right because nobody knew what was going on, and the instructor still wouldnt teach leg locks. The instructor was actually bragging to people about how âgoodâ the guy was even though he barely knew any BJJ.
The returning brown belt didnât have to pay for class and he was sending paying members to the hospital and making them quit. It sucked for our gym.
Yeah that situation sounds like it sucks for everyone involved.
Iâd hope the ending is âeveryone bought Eddie Cummings DVD and got good at the defense and hurt that brown belt until he quit.â
Shitty guys cranking subs on paying hobbiests is one of the most upsetting things to me
Lol I hear you I returned to training after a 4 year layoff this week (as a 42 yr old guy who is not matt for) and after saying to go light a young guy fucking cranked my neck rolling and tweaked my neck really bad
Iâm 41 and I just went with a 20 something yo big white belt from our sister school two weeks ago. Right before the round he says âok warning you, I have zero stand up skillsâ. As I go to shake hands with him I say something like âdonât worry about it, we can justâŚâŚâ. YANKâŚâŚguy goes like itâs the finals of IBJJF worlds, so I attempt to slow down the action by just immediately sitting to guard. Dude stomps down heavy and catches my toe and breaks it in half.
Like hitchhiker thumb, but big toe.
Imagine what a guy like this does when he thinks heâs only a movement away from tapping an upper belt with a leg lock
Itâs ok, leg locks are completely safe