Justin,
Could you talk a little more about the Sauer Curriculum ? What is
involved , or if you would like to email me ,
rrohling@mmaphotos.com . I have seen Henry compete at the
Nationals and he was unbeliveable.
I have some awesome pics too. I'll try to get them posted.
I have seen the Pedro sauer blue belt test many times and I have taken the Purple belt test. The blue belt test was like 2 techniques from every position like 2 escapes from the mount, 2 escapes from side control, 2 submissions from top, 2 submission from bottom - the test takes about an hour and if you are having problems Pedro makes it more like a class and helps you out a little and shows more details. There is also some grappling drills involved.
For the purple belt test I was asked to show more set ups and combinations and then I rolled in from of Pedro for a while while he evaluated me. He has a video series out that shows all of the techniques he expects the purple and blue belts to know. I think you can order it from www.pedrosauer.com
Pedro sauer is a very good teacher and joining his organization was one of the best things I have done for my school and my jiujitsu.
Justin
ttt for a TMA forum or stop by my forum at www.mmaleaders.com
Justin
Justin,
Thanks , I'll check it out. I think BJJ needs to be a little more
formalized for begining students.
I would love to help with a TMA forum, have spoke to glock4life
about this as well. Let's get this thing going.
Regarding the creation of new "styles," I agree that someone with a decade plus of experience in multiple training methods has developed their "own" unique system. When populations where smaller, this was easily accepted in centuries past. Just about every TMA, as well as Judo and BJJ, were "created" in this manner. Unfortunately, it is no longer Politically Correct to do this; Such individuals are labeled with "soke-itis" (a soke is the creator of a system) and a "wanna-be." Sadly, the MMA/cross-training revolution has led to the most effective and diverse "styles" that history has probably ever seen. But while the TMAs remain popular, flourishing in the $$$, those of us like myself and Justin often DO get flamed and ridiculed for even having the notion of "creating" a system. Lots of old-school instructors speak of "legitimacy" issues, citing that without the proper certification/documentation from the appropriate Asian or "World Family" governing bodies, that these new styles and systems are not "legitimate" styles and should be avoided and discouraged.It is my humble opinion however, that ther is NOBODY who should have the right to tell a person what they can and can't teach, or what they can or can't CALL what they teach. The martial arts industry is unregulated for a reason - they are ART forms. And all ART forms are INDIVIDUAL EXPRESSIONS. The only reason to keep people like Justin (or myself) from doing what we are doing is
1.) Fear of competition from the established TMAs and their "authorities,"
2.) Disrespect for the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America,
3.) Envy from people who lack either the creativity, skill, ingenuity, or dedication to achieve such a thing, and
4.) Brainwashing into the status quo that change and experimentation is inherently "bad"I have thought many times about getting "legitimized" with the 2 very unique systems that I teach. There is only one REAL obstacle. MONEY. The so called "govering body" that is recognized as "the" authority to "recognize" new styles charges about $10 grand!! just to LOOK at what you've done. If they don't like it, you are out the cash. Sorry, I don't need to spend that kind of money to tell me that what my students are learning is more effective than all these TMAs that this same governing body calls "legitimate" while looking their nose down upon programs like I or Justin run.
Justin,As far as the various levels of instructorship, to reach "Kaiden" would require that you feel comfortable with your own evolution to declare the system "finished." If you are anything like me, you will continue to improve, revise, and further evolve your system over time - therefore the Kaiden title holds little meaning. (It works for TMAs who have a set number of Kata for black belts to learn, however).BJJ and many other arts/styles use another approach - the rank of Black Belt (or in some cases, "Master" level at 5th Dan in some more TMA oriented systems) signifies that you have reached the pinnicle of theoretical & conceptual knowledge, as well as a very high physical skill level. From that point on, you progress in ranks in Black belt based upon continued contributions to the art. BJJ for example, awards 2nd through 4th degree belts every 3 years as long as you are teaching or activiely competing. 5th through 10th degree are achieved the same way, but require 5 years between ranks. Other arts have a flat 3 years between-ranks approach, while others have a graduating scale, such as 2 years to get 2nd degree black, 3 years to get 3rd, 4 years to get 4th, etc. Some have a cap (5 years max for any promotion, as long as you are actively contributing) while others go all the way with the scale (10 years to go from 9th to 10th degree black, usually making you so old you're too feeble to do much anymore, anyway!)My advice to you would be to do as I have done. Create a set of bylaws to govern your "organization" that oversees black belt ranks within your system. Specifically define what is required for each promotion of black belt. You would then advance your students AND YOURSELF according to those requirements.This has the following advantages to the "Kaiden" approach:
1.) It brings uniformity and structure to what is expected of all black belts
2.) You (and your 1st son), are not "deified" the way the TMA grandmasters are - allowing you to remain respected and dignified by not declaring yourself a "Grandmaster," and then getting flamed and labeled a wannabe
3.) It allows you to continue to develop and grow as a student (which ALL of us should ALWAYS be first and foremost, regardless of how much we have learned), until such time that you have truly put in 30 or 40 years and have likely fulfilled your peak potential
4.) It allows you to make corrections/adaptations to the system in the future by changing the by-laws of the organization for unforeseen problems
5.) It PROTECTS your established system in the event of your untimely demise, such that your "vision" can continue on the way YOU meant for it to (rather than have some ego-driven student take over and become the new "grandmaster," and undermine everything you've ever done by turning your system into a McDojo
6.) It gives your organization a sense of professionalism and credibility and legitimacy, even though you didn't make a bunch of old TMA Grandmasters richer and fatter for a fancy piece of paper
I welcome your feedback and comments. While it is very easy to turn what we do into just "MMA" or "kickboxing & grappling together," I believe that one of the keys to making EFFECTIVE martial art systems (including ALL approaches to MMA) mainstream is to compete with the TMAs on their own terms..... meaning short term goals, several colored belts, etc. Even within BJJ, there is a rank structure that does not exist in wrestling, boxing, or kickboxing. I don't think it is coincidence that TMAs are far more popular that those 3 sports, and I don't believe it's all because some people don't really want to be athletic, either. It's all about the marketing, in my opinion. Functional JKD, ChuFenDo, and the UFC & PRide will always appeal to the die-hard, hard-core combat athletes, but they are intimidating to the un-initiated people who are considering taking up the arts. Some people need to be brought into the arts gradually, with a belt and a set of requirements as a goal. By the time they are half-way to Black belt level, they can see the light at the end of the tunnel, but build upon the skills and confidence that they have already attained.
More food for thought!!
NoWhereMan22000,
Thanks for the props, bro. Any questions you have or anything I can help you with in preparing for training with Roy or Tony, just let me know. My email is Coach@TeamAdaptive.org.
Adam
One more thought for you guys:
One hundred years ago, very few of the current TMAs even existed in their present form. Karate was unheard of, Judo was in it's infancy, Japanese Jujitsu was a dying art (that has all but died, suffering from McDojo syndrome), Taekwondo wasn't around yet, Aikido wasn't around yet, BJJ didn't exist yet, etc.
Here we are in the beginning of the 21st century, doing with MMA curriculums what many of the now "legendary" martial arts figures (Funakoshi, Ueshiba, Kano, Maeda, etc.) were doing back then. What will things be like at the turn of the 22nd century?
My prediction is that MMA-based curriculums will be abundant, having adopted the TMA marketing approach, and will populate many, many new systems and styles. Some will be watered down, like many modern TMAs now are, but I feel that most will retain the value of effectiveness and realism that MMA and BJJ hold today. The current TMAs and McDojos will be as scarce as TRUE JJJ is now, and some of the things we do now will have advanced in such a way that people will look back and laugh at a few of the things we currently do, the way we laugh at chambering a fist at the hip in a horse stance for fighting in the street. Our "modern" styles of BJJ, Muay Thai, MMA, etc. will BECOME the TMAs of the next century (thus tying back into the original scope of this thread, at least a little bit.) :)
Adam
JustinM,
I wouldn't call myself anything but instructor. Period. Who cares what rank you are. If you teach a truly unique blend, or a complete syllabus, teach it and have fun. You are the ORIGINATOR of that system. It's yours....youown it....and you decide who gets what rank. You, however, will have NO rank.
As for teh question of can someone just create a new style....where do you think we got all the ones we are learning now?? Monkeys or martians??
Hell no, dudes....someone did exactically what I am saying....they opened a school, usually named it for their area (Japanese, I mean...for ex: Daito Ryu means "big east school"....opened in the eastern part of it's area)...and began to teach. If your product is good....your studetns will be good.
Dude...don't worry about what everyone else thinks....teach and continue learing. YOu sound like you're on the right track.
Good Luck.
Ronnie
ps-go here:
http://www.angelfire.com/sports/miyamaryuoftexas/Hystory.html
also...try and google miyama ryu jujutsu or the tremont school of judo and jujutsu in the bronx.
"Any questions you have or anything I can help you with in preparing for training with Roy or Tony, just let me know. "
Thanks man!
Entry Team said :"I wouldn't call myself anything but instructor. Period. Who cares what rank you are.Unfortunately, a LOT of people care. Every person that walks into a school looking to train cares! In BJJ, a brown or black belt is automatically considered to be a more capable instructor than a blue or purple (not always true, but it's an example of linear thinking). Using my above example again, when a parent goes to sign up their kid, they don't want "an instructor," they want the BEST instructor - and they measure that by how many "degrees" of black belt each teacher has.Being just an "instructor" or "originator" is not enough in America's fickle martial arts industry. You've got to play the marketing game, or resign to the fact that it will always be a hobby and you will have few students (unless you happen to live in a metropolitan area, which many of us do not!)FWIW, I've looked into the Miyama-Ryu in past years, even have a few of their books. It's a good concept to just use instructor levels, but the marketing of instructor levels just doesn't fly in the modern marketplace (I've tried that approach). Right or wrong, people equate degrees of black belt with skill. I've had blue belts of mine rip apart several high level TMA black belts and the theory doesn't hold up under actual application, but the PUBLIC PERCEPTION isn't about reality - it's about marketing; Degrees in Black Belt gets you students (and keeps them), regardless of your skill level.
Adam,
I guess the difference with me is...I don't do this for money. I do it as a lifestyle. As a passion. I don't look for rank, I look for how long I've been doing it.
Further, there are all manner of subgrappling and mma schools across the US where nobody has ANY rank....and they are very financially viable. Also....JKD doesn't have belt ranks....think Inosanto doesn't bank a mint??
Belts and ranks are overrated.
Ronnie
NowhereMan22000
Interesting question.
IMNSHO, at its best TMA can serve as a textbook of things you can do to hurt someone. Its a frame of reference, a body of knowledge.
MMA is at its best when it comes to training drills and conditioning methods.
I've also got a question.
you wrote:
"I'm referring to karate, Japanese JJ, Judo, Tae-kwon-do, kung fu etc, where no hard-contact takes place. (Although Judo is in a grey zone). Practice of self defense occurs mainly through practicing defense to pre-arranged attacks on a cooperating (or at least non-resisting partner). Often 1-man kata/forms are done."
I've done karate for 22 years. I do kata for conditioning and study it as a textbook. In order to drill reps of specific responses I'll pre-arrange an attack with a partner who resists-if I miss a block I get punched in the head;if the lock doesn't hurt they'll just laugh at me. I also hit a heavy bag or focus mitts.
During sparring, my training partners and I use controlled contact to the head (don't make them bleed or take out teeth); harder contact to the body, not full out, but the body can take more abuse so abuse it a little.
I've cross trained in Japanese jujutsu and currently cross train in a judo/bjj/wrestling/throw them on the ground and make them give up grappling mixture.
On my off time I swim (got burnt out after 12 years of running) and lift.
Where do I and the folks who train like me fit into the TMA/MMA classification?
Mark
Very few people can pull off something like Inosanto has done - he is successful for many reasons but one huge reason is his ties with Bruce Lee. Rickson Gracie can take off his belt and he will still sign up students because of who he is and what he has done. I know guys that have competed in the UFC and tell me they still lose students because people want to go train with someone that has a high ranking black belt. There are other martial arts that are very successful that dont use belts but they totally sell out and award Instructor ranks to the highest bidder.
Adam I think you are 100% correct on this thread. Hey you know this is Justin from Member Accounts right?
Thanks for your help and advice!
Justin
How do you teach MMA
justinM
"Very few people can pull off something like Inosanto has done - he is successful for many reasons but one huge reason is his ties with Bruce Lee."
I disagree. Lee's been dead for something like 30 years. The last 30 years of effort Inosanto has put into training and teaching is why he's successful.
"I know guys that have competed in the UFC and tell me they still lose students because people want to go train with someone that has a high ranking black belt."
Lots of reasons for that. Not the least of which is the general public wouldn't know good training if it bit them in the ass. That and the belt factories do a great job of appealing to people's egos.
Mark
KYKILLA
"How do you teach MMA"
Make people accountable for their training. How? Make them go do what they say they can do.
Mark
After having reached the point where I was on the other side of the counter, I have reached the conclusion that most of the sectarianism and no little amount of cultural baggage among fighting disciplines in North America is centered around pursuit of money in a limited marketplace.
For example ranks are largely in place for economic reasons - any school with grading fees and an unusual amount of gradings with a regular schedule is looking for extra money, imo. Of course, some form of regulation is needed to avoid cowboyism, I just question the intent when money is attached.
juszczec - thats a good point and I agree with alot of what you are saying but I know guys that train with Inosanto and they worship him and Bruce like they are Gods. It takes something incredible to pull that off. Also I have a lot of extra belts for my kids curriculem and it has nothing to do with money - if I dont reward the kids they dont stick with it and if they dont stick with the training they dont get good
This is a touigh topic and everyone is making some excellent points
Justin