IMO, 12 and 6 is up and down only when your head is above your body. In side-lying position, 12 and 6 are now in 3 and 9's former position, the clock rotates when the body position changes(again just my opinion).
The elbow Renzo threw was from the head(12) towards his feet(6) with the point of his elbow in a side lying position.
Now, if the rule is that elbows are illegal only if thrown from the ceiling to the floor then the elbow was legal.
"Also I see your point about the last knee or two at the end of round 1. "
There were three knees there(not the last knee or two), you are minimizing the these strikes still. Frank landed 5 knees total in Rd1 with one leg posted on the fence, and over 15 without the leg posted. More scoring strikes than Renzo throw in the whole rd.
"Now, if the rule is that elbows are illegal only if thrown from the ceiling to the floor then the elbow was legal."
BJM explained it this way
"The only illegal elbow is one thrown with the hand straight up in the air and elbow coming straight down."
I think that is pretty clear.
"There were three knees there(not the last knee or two), you are minimizing the these strikes still."
I don't mean to be, I thought a couple were more like bumps. We are playing semantics at this point. I'm glad that the discussion has become more productive.
I have gained a respect for your opinion (though I disagree), I am valuing Frank's striking more than I initially did. I hope after seeing the rules as i posted them you also realize the value of Renzo's takedowns, fight area control, and guard passing (from the perspective of the scoring system).
"I have gained a respect for your opinion (though I disagree), I am valuing Frank's striking more than I initially did." Thank you
can you tell me how many times Renzo transitioned to a better position in the fight? I know of 6, 3 takedowns and 3 1/2Grd passes to sidemount. Thanks for any response.
UFC 15 - Limits on permissible striking areas were introduced. Headbutts, groin strikes, strikes to the back of the neck and head, kicks to a downed opponent, small joint manipulation, pressure point strikes, and hair-pulling became illegal.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
No directed throat strikes are allowed.
Directed throat attacks would include a fighter pulling his opponents head in a way to open the neck area for a striking attack. (this is exactly what shamrock did)
I would say it is proven that strikes to the neck are ILLEGAL.
Why would you waste time and gas trying to punch someones neck
when all they have to do to protect it is move their head a little. Youll
get more results by hitting them on the chin.
I really thought about this at class tonight. Here is the conclusion I came to. The fact that we are arguing over the intricacies of specific rules is an example of everything that is wrong with MMA today (not taking away from the things that are right, and the progress the sport has made legally and financially). The truth is, if this was real NHB or Vale Tudo or just a friggin fight we wouldn't have any of this endless discussion.
If this was a real fight we would not have standups and rounds. We wouldn't have constant bickering and arguing about who won a fight. Why because the fight would have a conclusive ending. We would have had the oppurtunity to see if Renzocould end the fight on the ground before Frank could end the fight standing.
Arguing is pointless because everyone has an interpretation of something that was never intended to be interpreted. A real fight has a conclusive ending and we know who got the better of who.
In this case as in many sport fights we were robbed of any conclusive "winner".
It is a shame that the sport has required so much bastardization to gain acceptance.
On another topic, here is the original Unified MMA Rules (which have not been changed) that I go to when I want to look anything up. New Jersey was the first state to sanction MMA, and Nick Lembo was the point person from the AC. Every other state that has sanctioned the sport has adopted these rules.
"can you tell me how many times Renzo transitioned to a better position in the fight? I know of 6, 3 takedowns and 3 1/2Grd passes to sidemount. Thanks for any response."
I'm a little too tired to watch the fight again right now. I'm not ducking your question... can I have a raincheck?
"I know of 6, 3 takedowns and 3 1/2Grd passes to sidemount. Thanks for any response."
I may have missed something.
I have 3 takedowns 2 in round 1 and 1 in round 2.
I have 4 guard passes (not sure which one you called a half. There is one takedown that is pretty much (but not quite) right into side control I'm guessing that one?
I also have Renzo advancing position 5 times (moving to knee on belly, cross side crucifix, and or North south) that type of thing. 4 in the first round and 1 in the second.
I wasn't really sure before, but looking at it now I would say that Frank was in a really bad spot at the end of round 1. It is possible that he heard the 10 second warning and let Renzo get the crucifix, but that's a position that you can do damage from quickly and I don't think Frank is dumb enough to let Renzo get that position even at the end of the round.
Frank's best striking by far (IMO) is after the standup in round 1. This makes sense to me as the standup was a moral victory for Frank, and Renzo was likely not excited about having the fight stood up as he was advancing position.
It's amazing what you see when you truly overanalyze things.
I will also say (and not to start further debate, just as an observation), that every time I watch round 1 I become more convinced that Renzo won under the Unified MMA Rules.
I would also say that watching the fight again, rounds suck, ending a fight before someone has won sucks, and the Unified MMA Rules suck (though they suck less than not having MMA in the U.S.).
"I also have Renzo advancing position 5 times (moving to knee on belly, cross side crucifix, and or North south) that type of thing. 4 in the first round and 1 in the second."
North/South - was ATTEMPTED once, and Frank put his right arm up to stop the movement, Renzo went back to side control(note: THe only reason Renzo even tried to move to N/S was to avoid the knees being delivered, hence effective striking).
Crucifix - Renzo did get this, a little to late in the round to do anything with it. But yes that was a bad spot to be in. Even in that position Frank threw the ONLY POWER SHOTS, KNEES WITH OTHER LEG POSTED ON FENCE. The power shots should score just as much as the position if not more.
Knee on belly - This should only be scored if the fighter opens up with effective strikes or submission attempts that result in danger to the opponent(Frank was never in big trouble). I believe Renzo threw one strike(a nice elbow) from this position as the ref was stepping in to stand them up.
I think there is one thing we can all agree on, and that is strikes to the back of the neck FUCKING HURT.
Just tap yourself at the base of the skull. even doing that kind of hints at that "Oh god, please kill me" feeling you get from a really bad migraine or concussion. Renzo definitely wasn't being dramatic.
I think there is one thing we can all agree on, and that is strikes to the back of the neck FUCKING HURT.
Just tap yourself at the base of the skull. even doing that kind of hints at that "Oh god, please kill me" feeling you get from a really bad migraine or concussion. Renzo definitely wasn't being dramatic.