Arm In Guilotine? WHERE did it come from?

Wasnt Renzo the first guy getting it going or at least popularizing it

Renzo’s win over Kikuta was first successful use in competition. 

the schultz brothers used to do it in wrestling during the 80's, it was so notorious they would get extra referees assigned specifically to watch them for it. I've seen pictures of frank gotch using it in the edwardian age and I'm sure It was as old as the hills even then. Dave was just particularly sly in slapping it on people so it became known as "the schultz"

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de braco - 

the schultz brothers used to do it in wrestling during the 80's, it was so notorious they would get extra referees assigned specifically to watch them for it. I've seen pictures of frank gotch using it in the edwardian age and I'm sure It was as old as the hills even then. Dave was just particularly sly in slapping it on people so it became known as "the schultz"


I learned the move from Mark Schultz himself.  It's not the arm in guillotine.


What Renzo caught Militech with and what Hughes caught Almeida with (What the Schultz bros did) are two different things.

me too, the only difference is the jiu jitsu guys mainly did it from their but and the schultz from the top, the curl and the arm in are the same.

Props to Hendo for hitting it in the Brazil Open against Hammer House fighter Eric Smith.  That was the first time I saw it in MMA.  

 

Shout out as well to Pequeno for submitting pretty much everyone in Shooto with it.  He was an early innovator.

Oh no, that’s different, Renzo invented the “REAL” move after a beautiful dream of Helio

Yep.. the same move...diffferent..but the same exact thing...only different.

 

 

 

you have to nautilus to the side, which is what both are doing, being in different positions, it appears different to the clueless or mentally disabled.

Move over steppa, there's a new sheriff in town and he's gunna slapusilly

It's different. The version Matt Hughes uses can benegated if you just roll over to your back - it works for wreslting because of the rules. You don't want to get pinned. Renzo's variation,  even if you roll over you can still be finished.

i've never seen matt hughes version, it sounds unlike any cravat or schultz i've ever done in the last 50 years, i will concede renzo is a variation in as i stated earlier, they mainly use it from their but. If you are using a guillotine/front head lock with the arm in and wrench it down by curling to the side, it's a shultz/cravat.

SlapUsilly -

Yep.. the same move...diffferent..but the same exact thing...only different.




 


 


 

It's a different move


 


Look at how deep Renzo's arm is on the trapped arm side. He has his elbow all the way in the arm pit while Hughes has his arm about wrist deep. The connection of the hands is under the arm pit for Hughes while it is under the jaw for Renzo. The choking motion is different also, Hughes has a motion of pulling his elbow in towards him while he drives his head in the hole and Renzo is useing a pulling his wrist in motion while he crunches.


 


And the biggest difference is the opponents arm., Hughes has his opponents arm across while Renzo has his opponents arm wrapped around him. That is what makes all of the above I mentioned need to be executed differently.

Calhoon -
SlapUsilly -

Yep.. the same move...diffferent..but the same exact thing...only different.




 


 


 

It's a different move


 


Look at how deep Renzo's arm is on the trapped arm side. He has his elbow all the way in the arm pit while Hughes has his arm about wrist deep. The connection of the hands is under the arm pit for Hughes while it is under the jaw for Renzo. The choking motion is different also, Hughes has a motion of pulling his elbow in towards him while he drives his head in the hole and Renzo is useing a pulling his wrist in motion while he crunches.


 


And the biggest difference is the opponents arm., Hughes has his opponents arm across while Renzo has his opponents arm wrapped around him. That is what makes all of the above I mentioned need to be executed differently.

Sarcasm, bro

Pequeño noguiera got credit for inventing it in some circles. 

SlapUsilly -
de braco - 

the schultz brothers used to do it in wrestling during the 80's, it was so notorious they would get extra referees assigned specifically to watch them for it. I've seen pictures of frank gotch using it in the edwardian age and I'm sure It was as old as the hills even then. Dave was just particularly sly in slapping it on people so it became known as "the schultz"

I learned the move from Mark Schultz himself.  It's not the arm in guillotine.

What Renzo caught Militech with and what Hughes caught Almeida with (What the Schultz bros did) are two different things.

This. Shultz choke is not an arm in guillotine. 

TheBearStare - 

Wasnt Renzo the first guy getting it going or at least popularizing it

Definitely.

I remember watching one of Renzo’s earliest Pride fights and the announcers not understanding what they were looking st when Renzo had the arm-in guillotine. They kept calling it half a guillotine. It may have even been Bas. He was saying that Renzo should re-grip in front of the arm.

Animal Mother -
SlapUsilly -
de braco - 

the schultz brothers used to do it in wrestling during the 80's, it was so notorious they would get extra referees assigned specifically to watch them for it. I've seen pictures of frank gotch using it in the edwardian age and I'm sure It was as old as the hills even then. Dave was just particularly sly in slapping it on people so it became known as "the schultz"

I learned the move from Mark Schultz himself.  It's not the arm in guillotine.

What Renzo caught Militech with and what Hughes caught Almeida with (What the Schultz bros did) are two different things.

This. Shultz choke is not an arm in guillotine. 

It’s more an inverted arm triangle than anything. 

You see, most the history is nonsense. Arm-in chokes were around in catcha-as-catch-can and pro-wrestling. But the reality I knew someone circa 1995 that did arm in guillotines, and was told by a well-known BJJ black belt that arm-in was “wrong”. But the guy would submit many people with it, but was told having the arm inside is inefficient, etc. So, I am sure it was around long before that too, at least by people trying it.

HotSteppa - You see, most the history is nonsense. Arm-in chokes were around in catcha-as-catch-can and pro-wrestling. But the reality I knew someone circa 1995 that did arm in guillotines, and was told by a well-known BJJ black belt that arm-in was "wrong". But the guy would submit many people with it, but was told having the arm inside is inefficient, etc. So, I am sure it was around long before that too, at least by people trying it.

You’re absolutely right. No idea’s original and nothing’s new under the sun. I’m positive that someone as doing arm-in guillotines back in ancient Greece.

But I think it’s fair to say that Renzo really pioneered it in modern times (at least in the bjj circles) and was the first person to showcase it on a widely viewed sporting event on live television. In that sense he did a lot to bring it to the bjj community.

I know that luta livre guys have been all over a lot of the guillotines and other arm chokes that didn’t become popular in bjj until the late 90’s and 00’s.