BeboSaab - Once people start having no budo rules need to change. If all the fighters would throw hard elbows instead of slashing ones to the eyebrow I would have no problem with it. The problem is we have a large group of fighters slashing at the eyebrow for the win nowadays. These are usually the lower quality fighters doing this.
Elbows should go IMO, I like the fights better without them right now. There are so many up and comers who don't have the technique to be a high level MMAer so they practice things like attacking the eyebrow 6 hours a day and that's lame.
6 hours? Wow, that's alot of time to waste every day practicing a technique that doesnt seem to ever work.
studiocamp - Chimono, if you had bothered reading the post I asked what the stat was or if anybody knew it? If I had the stat why would I have asked for it?
If the new rules for elbows result in ko's I am all for them. I just don't like fights stopped due to cuts, some of you apparently do.
Oh, I read the post. Here, let me quote it again for you:
studiocamp -
The point is the chance of an elbow prematurely stopping a fight is much greater that ko'ing someone.
Then I asked if you had numbers to support your conclusion. And here you are telling me that you dont. SO, what you are in effect saying is that you made a statement that claims a specific outcome, when you had nothing to support your conclusion. In non-scientific terms, you pulled it out of your ass. A dozen people in this thread have provided evidence that directly contradicts your statement. They pulled those numbers out of Sherdog.
And I might also mention that NOBODY in this thread has stated that they like seeing fights stopped due to cuts, contrary to your most recent claim. Instead, they have pointed out the fallacy in your claims about the frequency of stoppages.
There, everyone should be on the same page now. Has that helped you at all?
studiocamp still hasn't presented any evidence to support his claims and Bebosaab is going onto some strange rant about hypothetical Iowa TUF'rs who cut people with elbows. I love this thread.
SlyGuy - I think there is one fundamental thing missing from the no elbows argument, position. Elbows from top position allow you to throw slicing blows with very little risk of losing your position.
The flip side of that is that guys who just lay on top and throw short elbows without posturing up leave themselves open to elbows from the bottom.
People bitch & moan about lay & pray, but look at what happens to guys who lay on top of guys who throw vicious elbows. Dewees lays on top of Ray and gets opened up like a faucet. War Machine lays on top of Rollins and eats a series of concussive elbow strikes. Sherk lays on top of Florian and Kenny slashes a goat's vagina into Sean's temple.
Elbows from the bottom are a great tool to counteract lay & pray. If you don't want to get sliced open, you had better posture up and get out of range of the razor elbows.
SlyGuy - I think there is one fundamental thing missing from the no elbows argument, position. Elbows from top position allow you to throw slicing blows with very little risk of losing your position.
I think this extremely limits the bottom game along with the cage. There is almost zero risk of losing top position throwing a 6-12 inch elbow. In a ring i don't think i would be against elbows on the ground. You can't use a cage to pin your opponent and throw 12 inch elbows.
Actually some of the most effective elbowing we have seen in the UFC in recent years has been from the guard. Most opponents can only really let loose with the elbows once they have effectively past guard or made it to half.
In an article from MMAWEEKLY on Feb. 16, BJM says ,"How many fights truly stop because of a cut from an elbow? They did a study on it and it was somewhere around 8 or 9% of all fights have ever done it".
He does go on to say that he thinks it's a good technique.
That means on average that 1 out of every 11 or 12 fights is stop due to a cut from an elbow. If I found a study showing that less than 1% of fights have ever ended from an opponent being ko'd due to an elbow would elbows still seem like a good idea? Comparing an elbow to a technique like a jab is ridiculous because a jab is not meant to cause a cut.
Just curious if any of you can think of more than 10 fights ever that have ended due to an elbow koing someone.
Here are the ones I can think of off the top of my head:
Pat Smith/Scott Morris Kendall Grove/Joe Riggs Anderson Silva/Tony Fryklund
studiocamp - In an article from MMAWEEKLY on Feb. 16, BJM says ,"How many fights truly stop because of a cut from an elbow? They did a study on it and it was somewhere around 8 or 9% of all fights have ever done it".
Either your memory is faulty or Big John's is wrong.
I actually crunched the numbers at one point (sometime around UFC 70) and only 4% of UFC fights had ended in TKO (injury) or TKO (doctor stoppage). That's includes shit like blown out knees, broken jaws, eye pokes, cuts from knees, cuts from punches, and cuts from elbows.
I also crunched the numbers for Pride and found that 3% of Pride fights ended in TKO (injury) or TKO (doctor stoppage). As we all know, Pride did not allow elbow strikes, so none of their stoppages were due to elbow strikes.
For argument's sake, let's make the extremely generous assumption that 100% of the difference in number of stoppages is due to elbow cuts. That means 1 out of every 100 fights ends to an elbow cut and another 3% end due to some other kind of injury/cut.
Are you really that concerned about something that happens once every 100 fights?
Every fight that Florian has won via cut stoppage was due to a perfectly executed STANDING elbow.
If you're going to start taking standing elbows away from Muay Thai fighters, maybe the next step should be taking armbars away from jiu-jitsu fighters. After all, a guy with one good arm can still fight just as well as a guy who is blinded by his own blood pouring into his eyes.
Only 2 that I can think off, and one is not an official fight (not on his record).
Florian beat Chris Leben on the first season of TUF when an elbow opened up a cut over Chris's eye. Then at the 2nd UFN he beat Alex Karalexis by opening up a huge cut across the bridge of his nose. Afterward cutting Karalexis, Florian stepped back and patted his elbow, essentially bragging about cutting Alex. That was 3 years ago, though and almost every win since then has been by sub. That's where the whole thing about banning elbows started, though, when Kenny cut Alex and patted his elbow.
Not having elbows is ridiculous. Some beautiful clinching can be had once guys know how to use elbows properly. Bas just wants a kick boxing match in there.