Where exactly would you draw the line on what is or isn’t MMA? Pancrase always allowed palm-strikes to the head of a downed opponent (though some wouldn’t do this due to gentleman’s agreements). Shooto didn’t always allow punches to a grounded opponent’s face. From approximately 1988 to 1994 you could kick, punch, knee, etc., your opponent’s body while he was on the ground, but not attack his face. It was still very much MMA, and the skill level was light-years ahead of the rest of world in terms of a fully integrated system of combat that took into consideration every range of a fight.
Maybe anything that isn’t full-on old school Vale Tudo/NHB shouldn’t be considered MMA. Why would we consider something to be mixed martial arts if headbutts, soccer kicks, 6-9 elbows, etc. aren’t legal? Although strangely enough a lot of the old-school Brazilian promotions had more rules than you might think. I don’t think that the IVC allowed groin strikes. Circuito de Lutas didn’t allow them, or fish-hooking, or strikes to the back of the head. A lot of the old-school vale tudo from 50+ years ago had rules similar to the original Pancrase rules.
I’m not saying any of this to be rude, but rather make a case that anything that tries to revolve around fighting in all of its ranges (I.E., punching, kicking, throws/takedowns, submissions) should be considered MMA, despite fluctuations in rulesets.
Here is some Shooto from 1990. Before strikes to the head of a grounded opponent are legal. Outside of the vintage video quality, you would be forgiven if you thought you were watching some late 90s/early 00’s MMA. Everyone here knew how to fight in all of the fighting ranges, even though their philosophy on the ground was to always go gonzo looking for a submission. They clearly didn’t have the BJJ submission over position mentality, but you wouldn’t think this wasn’t real MMA.
Unrelated, but looking at Igor’s record for that year to confirm the timeline of the Kerr fights and holy shit did he have a 2000. Most ammy’s I know know, my bitch ass self included, won’t do more than 3 or 4 a year. Dude had 8 fights.
Although some effort may be required, if any of you haven’t done so already, there is tons of Shooto history contained in this thread, and lots more will be added in the days to come.
Well Coleman had only had that pro wrestling match in PRIDE vs Takada when Igor Kerr happened. Coleman just arrived in PRIDE in 99 coming off that three skid in the UFC. Igor had been in PRIDE since 98 and just beat prime Barreto right before he beat Kerr when it became a NC. At the time of the Kerr fight Igor was on a 32 fight win steak. I think for sure if PRIDE had a world title in 98/99 that Igor would have won it. Even after Coleman arrived in PRIDE in 99, there is no guarantee he would have beat Igor if they met outside the GP setting but he beat him for sure.
Igor fought Goodridge and Saku for 25 minutes before he fought Coleman while Coleman just fought Shoji and got that bye vs Fujita essentially.
So yeah Igor would have for sure been PRIDE HW champ if they had a belt in 97-98 and gave him a shot at it. Of course Rickson, Kerr, Barreto, Wanderlei, Erikson etc… could have upset him but he would have been the favorite in my eyes. Him and Coleman and 99… well we saw how it went in a tournament setting but yeah, Coleman taking the title from Igor would not have been too shocking. Its still impressive how dangerous those 1st generation guys were when the sport was really only a handful of years old.
From 2009 to 2016 he only dropped a UD to Rockhold and a SD to Romero. Had wins (13) over Lindland, Kennedy, Brunson (2x), Lawler, Okami, Vitor etc… in that time and was being held back from a title shot in the UFC like Romero was while guys like Vitor, Bisping and Hendo got to jump the line.
Even once past his prime Jacare went up to LHW and dropped a razor thin SD to Jan who went and won the LHW title a year later.
Well written and informative post; I don’t think it was rude in any way.
As far as shooto, I don’t think I said anything wrong or controversial. The shooto I remember watching I THOUGHT allowed punches to the head on the ground. I found a YouTube fight from that era (or at least involving fighters I remember from that era) and there were punches to the head on the ground.
Rules change in leagues/organizations. I could say I remember groin shots in the ufc, and I’d be right. Just ask Joe son. But they aren’t allowed anymore.
As far as what is mma? I will say this. It is a different/higher level of combat sport when punches to the head on the ground are allowed. Same with when soccer kicks are allowed.
@ArodMFingJohns put it very nicely in his post about nhb, mma, etc. They’re all combat sports, and again I’m not trying to diminish the competitors or the organizations.
I think Peter Aerts said Pedro had the hardest leg kicks in kickboxing when Pedro went to go train with him. That says a lot considering the monsters Aerts has sparred with and fought over the years.
