These threads after all these years still don’t seem to get that:
• American Greco guys grew up largely on folk
• American folk guys transition to MMA in their late teens/early 20s usually, which is a good time to
• American freestyle guys also grew up largely on folk
So depends what we mean by “freestyle.” If they are non-American, wouldn’t they have grown up purely on freestyle?
If u take Khabib and his crew, they are hybrid grapplers/wrestlers.
So it really depends who we are comparing. I don’t have that much knowledge of folk style but would agree that the control aspect on the ground is much better suited to mma than freestyle par terre which is shit for mma. Not sure how much difference there are in the tds though…
Yes, as I also noted above, Khabib is an MMA adapted hybrid grappler. His Dad had him training their hybrid styles (Russian wrestling, sambo and judo) specifically for MMA. For example, control on the ground to gnp, shooting with head on outside to avoid knees, etc.
Can’t really use him as an arguement for freestyle or even just wrestling.
Sorry, I wasn’t asking a question. I was expressing confusion. On a thread about whether freestyle or folkstyle is better, you said folk because it has doubles. My point is that freestyle also has doubles.
Such is the case with every good MMA grappler.
And yet we are seeing foreign wrestlers becoming good at it.
As Judom used to say, in the Causcus, it’s all wrestling. I used to think that freestyle was deficient compared to folkstyle in terms of MMA potential. I no longer think that. Tough guys who are skilled in either are both likely to transition well into MMA.
All important points. Ones you and I have made throughout the years. I do think that folkstyle’s riding is uniquely helpful for MMA. It’s possible that the Soviet approach to freestyle – one more focused on technique than the grind – helps the people from that part of the world adapt
I think we would need to see more pure Soviet freestyle guys making the transition to see? We’ve seen countless American collegiate guys come over to prove it’s effectiveness although I also think it’s when you transition as well and during or after college is probably early enough.
All Grapplers should have some familiarity with the 3 pillars of wrestling as it applies to their culture.
Martial–You must have some kind of grappling that includes submissions and/or practical combat/ self-defense skills (Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Sambo, Catch Wrestling)
Traditional–This represents your history and culture (American Folkstyle, Sumo, Ssireum, Schwingen, Kushti, Laamb, etc).
Olympic–This provides a universal format to allow grapplers from many nations, cultures and styles to compete in a uniform and organize fashion.
I have trained in many styles and without a doubt the best style to develop takedowns and the ability to control people is American Folkstyle.
I don’t know if anyone brought this up for
folkstyle but with this new age of wrestlers and their scrambling abilities could transition well into MMA/bjj . You don’t see a ton of scrambling in freestyle due to the risk of exposure. I think this next wave of American wrestlers starting MMA is really going to be fun to watch. I got a kid that I coached in highschool , he’s finishing up his college career next year and he’s gonna fight . He’s been training since highschool for MMA with me . The kid is gonna be a force at welterweight.
I spent years arguing on this forum that folkstyle is superior to freestyle and greco for MMA. Most of my arguments have been mentioned on this thread:
(1) top riding;
(2) bottom tenacity and standup;
(3) the grind of the folkstyle season is the hardest thing combat sports – far harder than MMA or the freestyle circuit.
But, I just think that empirically, as MMA’s international presence grows, I am no longer confident in my assessment. When the facts change, I alter my opinions.
They generally do that under the Freestyle ruleset where the defender makes a decision based on the possibility of exposure. No doubt FS teaches good takedowns but as far as their conversion to real scenarios in MMA or BJJ they do not translate well and I would say the same for Judo. There are many things that change when you apply the Olympic exposure rules. The stance/level can be higher and the defense of the takedown is generally easier imo.
Many styles become over-evolved to achieve some abstract objective, I think this is especially true for the Olympic styles. Judo suffered the same fate after Olympic inclusion. Little by little it moved away from practical combat necessity that Master Kano sought and moved toward arbitrary ideas about what the fans or officials want to see or prognostications about what the TV audience understands.
I will never say that individual athletes of any style cannot adapt to another style and win. I never underestimate humans in that regard. I personally believe Hakuho Sho could win in any wrestling or fighting style if he is given the proper coaching and time because he is a genius athlete with a warrior spirit. He is certainly not a American Folkstyle wrestler. Hope that clears up my perspective.
Forgot to answer the question, Why do they take down Americans? They are taking them down in FS or Greco and our wrestlers take time to adjust to the new rules. During this process international wrestlers have a big advantage on achieving and defending against takedowns, scoring and defending in par Terre. I think you would see those same international wrestlers lose takedowns to the same American wrestlers if they competed in American Folkstyle but that never happens. Same logic applied across the board…I expect Americans to lose to Turks in Gures. I expect Americans to lose to Japanese in Sumo.
Folkstyle. I wrestled Greco too, but like most have said, you cannot replicate the pressure and intensity of folkstyle. My wife moved here not having ever wrestled folkstyle and thinks the mat wrestling is superior to anything she saw in Europe. Leg attacks are different because if you don’t take a correct angle on a finish in freestyle, you can give up 2 exposure easily whereas in folkstyle the same position can’t be bad unless you get held on your back. Also locking hands makes keeping position easy. I sometimes forget when I’m rolling I can lock my hands and it almost feels like cheating honestly.
The other thing a lot of people forget is folkstyle or wrestling in general have a ton of holds you can really hurt people with. No straight armbars or triangle chokes, but you can wrench on body parts and make people feel very bad. You can even leg lave somebody and make it hurt. But most of that is 100% American folkstyle because there isn’t a ref to stop you for potentially dangerous.