Sak, Nog, Wand, JDS against Cain, Leben, Hendo, etc all come to mind here....oh yeah, Frankie...and how could I forget (for Thiaguy) - Shogun!
Wasa-B - Rating toughness is pretty tough.
lol...but very true.
Toughness to me usually means being mentally tough, not physically.
wiggum - ^^Thanks. I agree - I'm very pleased with the responses.Based on your "factors of tough"...no you don't.
And very glad that nobody sees this thread as an attack on BJ. Again, I think he's insanely tough.
What a gentlemanly discussion.
Bravo good sirs, this kind of debate without name calling is what I think the entire forum should be like. 
BJ's a great fighter. Feel free to comb through his career with your criticisms, nothing we haven't heard before. But giving detailed descriptions of your personal views on "toughness" along side reasons why BJ does not meet your criteria ...then going on to say he's insanely tough...
Let his peers judge him. Their respect for his "toughness" is resounding.
I was waiting for Malvert to chime in.
Shocked he's in disagreement with the OP :P
Not necessarily...
He's entitled to his opinion and his opinion makes sense. You just say those things and then go on to say he's insanely tough. The premise of the thread is he isn't...and I'm not sure I disagree. But these discussions take away from the good things he brought to MMA, true or not, and I choose to remember him, if he is indeed retired, for those qualities that make him a legend...
D241 -
Take your top 5 fighters who you think are tougher than BJ Penn.(This goes for anyone)
Tell me what makes their toughness more impressive than BJ Penn fighting who he has fought, and Never being submitted, Never being ko'd, Never being dropped in a fight.
I want to see how many of you can convince me how many fighters are tougher than Penn.
Ready? GO
Sure:
Fitch -- BJ spent 4 rounds surviving against GSP. Fitch spent five rounds trying every second of every round trying to beat him.
Frankie Edgar -- gets his head knocked in in the first round, comes back to win. Has BJ ever come from behind to win a fight? Honest question.
Jeremy Horn -- Outclassed in every minute of the fight with Chuck Lidell. Receiving a horrific beating. Keeps in it.
Henderson -- King of Rings tournament. Stories have it he needed help getting out of the changeroom to compete in the final because he was that exhausted. Wins it all.
Forrest -- beats 'better' fighters by being the last one to quit.
I enjoy watching BJ fight. He's exceptionally skilled and very hard to take down, keep down, or put down. Solid chin, dangerous figher. But there are many fighters out there who are 'tougher' than him.
Nothing wrong with that. We have no idea how 'tough' Jon Bones Jones is, because he hasn't had to pass through a real gut check yet. He's still a great fighter.
You all make good points...but let's judge the man's total body of work. BJ was a world class martial artist before he ever put on gloves. He never displayed toughness on the mats at Ralph Gracie's? Or in the sweltering hot box of Rio's Nova Uniao?
I think there are 2 contributing factors that come into play when gauging someone's 'toughness'. The physical side, and the psychological side.
BJ has the physical side down 100%. Granite chin, never knocked down, hardly ever cut, etc. He is one of the most physically durable fighters to ever compete, and this is mostly due to his fantastic genes that have gifted him with incredibly strong skin and an ability to take punishment that it only rivalled by the guys like Hunt and Cabbage.
As for the psychological aspect of toughness, BJ falls down in this category due to him being easy to break mentally, and he has a history of never winning fights if he doesn't win the first round. This is partially due to his habit of fighting above the weight class that he really should be fighting in, and partially due to him just not being as mentally tough as some of the other guys listed in this thread, be it Jon Fitch, or Jeremy Horn, or whoever.
When it comes down to it, BJ is a very physically tough guy who can take (and has taken) a hellaciously strong beating and still stay standing, but he is known for being mentally weak when it comes to fighting, and has a history of quitting when things aren't going his way in the cage.
I think I was the one who started this up on the is BJ the toughest fighter thread, everyone before me said he was the toughest if not one of the toughest. I introduced mental toughness and differentiated different types of toughness. Is someone with a pineapple for a head tougher than someone who is easier to ko or finish but will keep pushing on pure heart desire and will such as a Scott Smith?
I think we are confusing BJs physical attributes for toughness, I don't have any single memory of BJs career where I felt like he walked through the fire on will or desire. He is an incredible talent and has incredible balls for stepping up and taking some of the fights he has taken, but when he had to face adversity we saw what he was made of.
Toughness isn't a trait that is created, it is a trait that is exposed and it is exposed in certain situations in a fighters career where he wills and desires his way through adversity. I just have no memory of BJ ever doing this. When a fight is not going his way, he folds mentally. When you break mentally, you can't be tough imo.
Tough is a relative term but we are talking about the toughest of a small percentage of humans who fight for a living, in that context BJ isn't tough. He can be a human punching bag, he can take punishment, but so could anyone if they had an iron head and chin. WHat does he do when he faces adversity? That's when toughness is exposed.
Any Jiu Jitsu black belts in here commenting on BJ's toughness? How about World Champion Jiu Jitsu black belts?
Think that takes toughness?
I get it. BJ wouldn't make your high school wrestling team. There are coal miners who couldn't either.
Toughness is relative and us armchair analysts sound stupid qualifying a Jiu Jitsu and MMA champions' "toughness"....
joe canada -D241 -
Take your top 5 fighters who you think are tougher than BJ Penn.(This goes for anyone)
Tell me what makes their toughness more impressive than BJ Penn fighting who he has fought, and Never being submitted, Never being ko'd, Never being dropped in a fight.
I want to see how many of you can convince me how many fighters are tougher than Penn.
Ready? GO
Sure:
Fitch -- BJ spent 4 rounds surviving against GSP. Fitch spent five rounds trying every second of every round trying to beat him.
Frankie Edgar -- gets his head knocked in in the first round, comes back to win. Has BJ ever come from behind to win a fight? Honest question.
Jeremy Horn -- Outclassed in every minute of the fight with Chuck Lidell. Receiving a horrific beating. Keeps in it.
Henderson -- King of Rings tournament. Stories have it he needed help getting out of the changeroom to compete in the final because he was that exhausted. Wins it all.
Forrest -- beats 'better' fighters by being the last one to quit.
I enjoy watching BJ fight. He's exceptionally skilled and very hard to take down, keep down, or put down. Solid chin, dangerous figher. But there are many fighters out there who are 'tougher' than him.
Nothing wrong with that. We have no idea how 'tough' Jon Bones Jones is, because he hasn't had to pass through a real gut check yet. He's still a great fighter.
I like your list.
Hardest to argue thus far.
I give you Fitch, I give you Horn, I don't give you Edgar, I don't give you Forrest, Henderson is a toss up.
Edgar has been floored many times. His lack of toughness got him dropped, but it was his heart, that made him stand up.(he has toughness, just sayin)
Although Dan has been dropped, which is something BJ can't say, Dan has been in there with heavier hitters, so that is a strong argument in his favor.
You named 3 guys though, I have BJ still in the top 5 with guys like Fitch and Horn and Hendo, but I don't have Edgar and Forrest having more toughness. Heart yes, toughness no.
wiggum -D241 -
Take your top 5 fighters who you think are tougher than BJ Penn.(This goes for anyone)
Tell me what makes their toughness more impressive than BJ Penn fighting who he has fought, and Never being submitted, Never being ko'd, Never being dropped in a fight.
I want to see how many of you can convince me how many fighters are tougher than Penn.
Ready? GO
No problem, D. These aren't my 5 all-time toughest. Just people who are tougher than BJ for different reasons.
Big Nog - comes in better shape than BJ. Fights anyone anywhere in spite of injuries. Fights to win consistently even when getting beaten on.
Enson - almost died in the ring and apologized to fans for not fighting hard enough.
Sak - arguably a greater 'any man anytime' ethos than BJ; fought Igor for Christ's sake. Endured more than BJ has endured in a fight and still tried to win through out.
Frankie - works much harder than BJ. Still a small guy fighting the big boys. Comebacks from the Gray fights make him tougher.
Fedor - Better shape; small guy against big guys; killer instinct; perseverance (Randleman, for instance).
2 of my friends.
THE TOUGHEST challenged the best who were MUCH bigger again and again. Period
Hendo, Sak, Enson, Minowa, and Royce.
wiggum - With his potential retirement, there have been a couple discussions here about BJ Penn's toughness. I think BJ raises a lot of interesting questions about what toughness actually is; where you fall on the BJ debate ends up being indicative of your take on toughness. This is something I've thought about a lot through my own career in combat sports. I've fought for one of the best camps on Earth and wrestled for a top 5 D1 team; being in those environments mean you think about this a lot.You went a long way just to try and discredit Bj Penn
Factors of toughness:
A. Work ethic and discipline: This is where the BJ argument loses steam. It's easy to work hard for 5 minutes at a time; it's easy to say 'yes' to a fight. It's hard as hell to cut 40 pounds the right way. It's hard not to drink, not to go out, not to party when those options are available. It's hard to work hard - all the time, for an extended career. Those things require real toughness. BJ, for instance, could never do these things for more than a couple fights in a row.
Georges St. Pierre is probably the best example of the toughness associated with hard work. Other great examples are JDS, Randy, Chael, and Ben Henderson.
B. Demonstrated mental toughness at game time: There are a lot of guys who will work their asses off every day but when game day comes, they fold. They are tougher than 99% of the fight world, but this is where you separate the men from the boys. It's hard to really understand this quality until you've seen it up close in training and then in competition. Matt Lindland sums it up here, going beyond hardwork in describing Chael Sonnen: "I've said this before as his coach: He'll put the work in, and he'll stay dedicated, and he'll stay focused," he said. "He's an incredible athlete. He's got all the tools. But in fighting, you have to be a tough mother[expletive]. And he's just not very tough."
I think the desire to PREVAIL exceeds the desire to ENDURE. BJ endures incredibly. I'm convinced he would have stayed in that crucifix and eaten shots from Hughes forver. But trying to prevail: Shogun versus Hendo; JDS versus Cain; Nog versus Cro Cop; Frankie versus Gray.
C. "Any Time Any Where" This is BJ's world. Chael described it nicely during the Jon Jones fiasco (describing the same world I came up in): "Dan Henderson, Matt Lindland, Randy Couture. These are the guys who molded me not just physically, but mentally. They would fight anybody, any time, anywhere. Some people mean it when they say that.
I'm from that same mold. I'd never disrespect those guys that gave so much to me by being the first one from our group to back down. And I never say that to sound like a tough guy. I say that because I think it's really important that you're never a bully in this sport.
...The only litmus test I have for myself—am I willing to fight anybody? When the day comes that I won't fight somebody, I won't fight anybody."
Think Chael fighting Jones. BJ fighting Lyoto. Royce Gracie. Charlie Brenneman fighting on a day's notice. Sak versus the world. Tough!
There is no doubt BJ is TOUGH. But if we look at toughness holistically, I don't think we can say he's the toughest. Same with Sak. Imagine if these guys ate right and trained hard! They are some of the toughest dudes around; but saying they are the toughest disrespects in some way the hard work put in by a Georges St. Pierre or Frankie Edgar.
I think you have to blend all these elements. I'm thinking Uriah Faber; JDS; Anderson Silva; Nog; Enson; Frankie; etc.
Thoughts?
D241 -Wiggum, I can clearly see where our difference in opinion lies.
I feel you are bringing in "heart" into toughness, which is arguable if it should be included. This is your thread so if that is part of your requirements, then so be it.
However, I am comparing only toughness, to toughness.
Big Nog, let his arm get snapped, before finally tapping. That is HEART.
Nog has been dropped many times, but never gives up, that's heart.
BJ Penn has not only had anything snapped, he's never been dropped. That is Toughness
BJ has given up in a fight, that I attribute moreso to lack of heart than toughness. He took a beating and his body didn't give out.
Enson fought a great striker, and was dropped and hurt many times. It was his HEART that stood out to me the most. However, he also showed mad toughness and Enson I feel is the fighter with the most heart in the history of fighting, and also one of the toughest.
I'll give you Enson, but an argument can be made his toughness record in fights isnt' as good as BJ Penn's.
Sakuraba, Frankie, Fedor, they all arguably have more heart than BJ Penn. But they all, have been dropped in the stand up, or submitted. BJ Penn has not, and unlike Frankie, BJ has fought many bigger guys, and never been dropped.
You named 1(Enson), so you don't meet my standards ;)
I see not being dropped, and not being tapped, as being physical attributes, whereas "tough" to me is a mental thing. Which shines through when u watch nog, or edgar fight. You call it heart, I call it toughness, but I guess it's all semantics
You guys want fuckin proof of toughness?
Royce- "Hey, I can't see anything, point me in the right direction man. Tell me what to do, really because I can't see. Dehydration hit. Everything blacked out. So it's up to you guys now. Tell me what should I do. I'm a soldier.”
Hendo- Out on fuckin feet in UFC 17 he only remembers (after the punch) waking up in an ambulance and seeing Newton eating pizza across the street. He thinks to himself (with broken jaw and hand), it's not right this guy eating pizza & me here after winning the fight. He sneaks out and gets a pizza so Newton can see he's fine and eating pizza too. The next thing he remembers is being in the hospital, pizza next to him. Hendo also had an IV in (in the dressing room) prior to Kondo fight, and ended up coming on in that fight in RD.3 (they needed to help him to the locker room after). He was in rough shape before the Rings final as well.
I see not being dropped, and not being tapped, as being physical attributes, whereas "tough" to me is a mental thing. Which shines through when u watch nog, or edgar fight. You call it heart, I call it toughness, but I guess it's all semantics
Well it is all semantics, but for the sake of debating...
There should be some agreed definition of all 3, because all 3 seem to intertwine with each other depending on what argument you read.
For instance, not getting dropped, I am not sure if that should be classified as toughness or durability. One thing I feel confident about, is that it should be classified moreso as one of those than heart.
But once you get dropped, getting up is heart.
So we should collectively figure out, what is the difference between durability and toughness?
(heads to google)
"What is toughness? Toughness is the ability to consistently perform at a high level no matter what the competitive circumstances are. In other words-- no matter what happens, no matter what is thrown at you, no matter what adversity you are faced with-- you will still be able to bring all your talent and skills to life on demand." - Wrestling Tough
To me toughness can be physical and mental. I typically think of being tough as being mentally tough. Both can be trained.
Malvert the Janitor -wiggum - ^^Thanks. I agree - I'm very pleased with the responses.Based on your "factors of tough"...no you don't.
And very glad that nobody sees this thread as an attack on BJ. Again, I think he's insanely tough.
I do.
I give four criteria for toughness. I think BJ is damn near the top of two of them (killer instinct and anytime anywhere).
He's not my top 5 or top 10 toughest ever. But in MMA, you can be insanely tough without being top 10 ever.