He's entitled to his opinion and his opinion makes sense. You just say those things and then go on to say he's insanely tough. The premise of the thread is he isn't...and I'm not sure I disagree. But these discussions take away from the good things he brought to MMA, true or not, and I choose to remember him, if he is indeed retired, for those qualities that make him a legend...
And I've voted you up for this many times. I love your BJ threads.
Point of the thread wasn't to bash BJ. I say repeatedly, and have said for years, he's one of the most durable, exciting, game fighters ever. A true legend.
The topic here wasn't meant to be BJ as much as it is toughness itself. BJ just provides a nice contrast between different kinds of toughness.
I will also add that I think Jon Jones is "insanely tough." But he's not one of the toughest ever.
He clearly works incredibly hard. He has shown resilience - losing the first round to Lyoto and then coming back. And he's shown heart - fighting through Vitor's arm bar. However, he's not one of the toughest ever because he lacks the any time any where spirit.
I really thought this thread would degenerate into a disaster. Impressively civil so far.
I can appreciate the distinction some make between toughness and durability, and it's a valid point. When discussing 'toughness' semantics is germane.
Let me put it this way: BJ is tough to knock out/down. Tough to sub. Tough to finish. We all agree on that.
But look at it this way: I can enter a local tourney and beat the jesus out of most anyone (where I live, there isn't much local talent). No one's likely to knock me out or sub me. Does that make me tough? Not really. It just makes me better than the guys I'm facing.
BJ is, legitimately, better than most of the guys he fights. I believe he was better than GSP when they first fought. GSP won that fight on cardio, strategy, and long swinging balls.
But Penn's never (to my knowledge -- correct me, pls, if I'm mistaken) come back from adversity in the ring or cage. He's that local guy that I am, except his local town is his entire frikkin weight class at the elite level.
He's better than almost everyone he fights. He gets beat by being out worked, out lasted and yes, out toughed. (GSP is an exception, as in the second fight, GSP outclassed him in every aspect of the fight).
Also, when we discuss toughness, context is king. There's no question BJ is tougher than your above-average Joe. We're comparing him to his peers, of which there are few.
I feel that "durability" doesn't get as much props as toughness, and I also feel that differentiating the two is hard to do.
When it comes to an elite mma career, being one of the most durable fighters, is an extreme advantage, and something only a select few have like the level of a BJ Penn and Dan Henderson.
I guess you could say BJ's two greatest attributes, were his skills as a fighter, and his durability.
But when you understand that man's career and the context of it, that doesn't seem to do him justice, ya know?
joe canada - I really thought this thread would degenerate into a disaster. Impressively civil so far.
I can appreciate the distinction some make between toughness and durability, and it's a valid point. When discussing 'toughness' semantics is germane.
Let me put it this way: BJ is tough to knock out/down. Tough to sub. Tough to finish. We all agree on that.
But look at it this way: I can enter a local tourney and beat the jesus out of most anyone (where I live, there isn't much local talent). No one's likely to knock me out or sub me. Does that make me tough? Not really. It just makes me better than the guys I'm facing.
BJ is, legitimately, better than most of the guys he fights. I believe he was better than GSP when they first fought. GSP won that fight on cardio, strategy, and long swinging balls.
But Penn's never (to my knowledge -- correct me, pls, if I'm mistaken) come back from adversity in the ring or cage. He's that local guy that I am, except his local town is his entire frikkin weight class at the elite level.
He's better than almost everyone he fights. He gets beat by being out worked, out lasted and yes, out toughed. (GSP is an exception, as in the second fight, GSP outclassed him in every aspect of the fight).
Also, when we discuss toughness, context is king. There's no question BJ is tougher than your above-average Joe. We're comparing him to his peers, of which there are few.
wiggum - With his potential retirement, there have been a couple discussions here about BJ Penn's toughness. I think BJ raises a lot of interesting questions about what toughness actually is; where you fall on the BJ debate ends up being indicative of your take on toughness. This is something I've thought about a lot through my own career in combat sports. I've fought for one of the best camps on Earth and wrestled for a top 5 D1 team; being in those environments mean you think about this a lot.
Factors of toughness:
A. Work ethic and discipline: This is where the BJ argument loses steam. It's easy to work hard for 5 minutes at a time; it's easy to say 'yes' to a fight. It's hard as hell to cut 40 pounds the right way. It's hard not to drink, not to go out, not to party when those options are available. It's hard to work hard - all the time, for an extended career. Those things require real toughness. BJ, for instance, could never do these things for more than a couple fights in a row.
Georges St. Pierre is probably the best example of the toughness associated with hard work. Other great examples are JDS, Randy, Chael, and Ben Henderson.
B. Demonstrated mental toughness at game time: There are a lot of guys who will work their asses off every day but when game day comes, they fold. They are tougher than 99% of the fight world, but this is where you separate the men from the boys. It's hard to really understand this quality until you've seen it up close in training and then in competition. Matt Lindland sums it up here, going beyond hardwork in describing Chael Sonnen: "I've said this before as his coach: He'll put the work in, and he'll stay dedicated, and he'll stay focused," he said. "He's an incredible athlete. He's got all the tools. But in fighting, you have to be a tough mother[expletive]. And he's just not very tough."
I think the desire to PREVAIL exceeds the desire to ENDURE. BJ endures incredibly. I'm convinced he would have stayed in that crucifix and eaten shots from Hughes forver. But trying to prevail: Shogun versus Hendo; JDS versus Cain; Nog versus Cro Cop; Frankie versus Gray.
C. "Any Time Any Where" This is BJ's world. Chael described it nicely during the Jon Jones fiasco (describing the same world I came up in): "Dan Henderson, Matt Lindland, Randy Couture. These are the guys who molded me not just physically, but mentally. They would fight anybody, any time, anywhere. Some people mean it when they say that.
I'm from that same mold. I'd never disrespect those guys that gave so much to me by being the first one from our group to back down. And I never say that to sound like a tough guy. I say that because I think it's really important that you're never a bully in this sport.
...The only litmus test I have for myself—am I willing to fight anybody? When the day comes that I won't fight somebody, I won't fight anybody."
Think Chael fighting Jones. BJ fighting Lyoto. Royce Gracie. Charlie Brenneman fighting on a day's notice. Sak versus the world. Tough!
There is no doubt BJ is TOUGH. But if we look at toughness holistically, I don't think we can say he's the toughest. Same with Sak. Imagine if these guys ate right and trained hard! They are some of the toughest dudes around; but saying they are the toughest disrespects in some way the hard work put in by a Georges St. Pierre or Frankie Edgar.
I think you have to blend all these elements. I'm thinking Uriah Faber; JDS; Anderson Silva; Nog; Enson; Frankie; etc.
Thoughts?
So with this and your point about killer instinct, you've perfectly described Carlos Condit.
