RockTheVote -The thing is, wrestling isn't just takedowns. It's the fundamental ability to hold someone down. Well, folkstyle wrestling anyway. Winning BJJ scrambles. Keeping a strong base throughout movements. Dominating top position. It's extremely useful in BJJ for more than just takedowns.
good post
Calhoon -3 reasons why I believe top bjj guys have a harder time picking up wrestling then wrestlers do picking up bjj. But first I'll point out that I dont believe it is because wrestling is harder to learn.
The 3 reasons are:
1) Because bjj guys dont put in the time training wrestling that wrestlers put in training bjj.
2) Because if a wrestler comes to bjj as a young man or an adult, it is easy for him to find quality instructors that are willing to spend the time with him teaching him as a beginner. It is also easy for him to find lots of other bjj guys his age and skill level to spar with. A bjj guy that gets into wrestling as an adult has a much tougher time finding a top instructor that will teach him as a beginner and its aso tougher to find adult beginner sparring partners.
3) Wrestlers who learn bjj later in life are wanting to learn a complete bjj game. Once they train for years and develop their game then they can spar with other high level bjj guys at bjj and be competative. Bjj guys who look to learn wrestling find that they dont need a lot of what it takes to be a great wrestler so they dont learn a complete game.
good post too
Uhtred Ragnarson -Who are some of the top BJJ players turned wrestlers in submission grappling (and to a lesser extent MMA) today? And how did they develop said skill sets?
Keep in mind that it is much easier to get the takedown in mma and many believe in upper body takedowns being the best mma strategy. Fedor, Daniel Cormier, etc.
For Sub grappling you will not be able to use your strikes to secure the clinch and you will not have to fear getting sprawled on and beaten while on bottom. Leg attacks become much safer.
Check out Jon Trenge’s instructional dvd’s. I think that is a great place to start.
I'll probably catch shit for saying this, but Dillon Danis has excellent wrestling for a bjj guy. It's one of the reasons I believe he'll transition well to MMA.
I'll also add Pablo Popovitch to the list, as well as Cyborg Abreau. Keenan also has surprisingly good wrestling.
MarsMan -Calhoon -3 reasons why I believe top bjj guys have a harder time picking up wrestling then wrestlers do picking up bjj. But first I'll point out that I dont believe it is because wrestling is harder to learn.
The 3 reasons are:
1) Because bjj guys dont put in the time training wrestling that wrestlers put in training bjj.
2) Because if a wrestler comes to bjj as a young man or an adult, it is easy for him to find quality instructors that are willing to spend the time with him teaching him as a beginner. It is also easy for him to find lots of other bjj guys his age and skill level to spar with. A bjj guy that gets into wrestling as an adult has a much tougher time finding a top instructor that will teach him as a beginner and its aso tougher to find adult beginner sparring partners.
3) Wrestlers who learn bjj later in life are wanting to learn a complete bjj game. Once they train for years and develop their game then they can spar with other high level bjj guys at bjj and be competative. Bjj guys who look to learn wrestling find that they dont need a lot of what it takes to be a great wrestler so they dont learn a complete game.
All of these match my experience, especially #3.
It’s a great post. iirc, SinCityHussler and Judom have both written really insightful posts on this topic. I can’t remember what threads. Hell, I’ve probably written about this before, too.
I’ll add a couple points:
(1) Infrastructure:
As of now, jiujitsu schools exist as businesses. Wrestling is a nonprofit. Jiujitsu classes cater to many needs - self defense, fitness, fun, and competition. Wrestling caters to one: competition.
These differences matter tremendously. In high school, wrestling practice is 2.5 hours a day, 6 days a week. And that’s the minimum. The high level wrestlers spend more time wrestling than that. In college, It’s 5-6 hours a day, 6 hours a week. And practice is designed so you train to win. BJJ, by contrast, has to meet the needs of people who - quite simply - don’t want to train as hard. BJJ practice is often easier, shorter, and done with less frequency.
Now, some of this might change as you see more Gordon Ryans emerge. People that decide at a young age they want to compete in BJJ and they start training solely for that purpose. However, it won’t ever been at comparable levels because wrestling is a scholastic sport.
Because of all this, most wrestlers are better at wrestling than BJJ players are at BJJ.
(2) Intensity, Ability to Learn, and Athleticism
Because of the different training upbringings, I think wrestlers that transition into BJJ are ready to train with greater intensity and are familiar with conditioning, etc. at a level that your average BJJ player simply isn’t used to. In addition to that, because wrestlers have competed so much - which creates a sense of urgency in learning - I think wrestlers (at least high level ones) are often a little better at learning moves than average BJJ players. There is more of a sense that I MUST learn these moves, because a failure to learn creates a likelihood of losing. Wrestlers are also less nonchalant about giving up positions in practice because of their competitive background.
(3) How to get good at BJJ v. How to get good at wrestling
Quite simply, you cannot get good at wrestling without countless hours of high intensity, repetitive drilling with a good training partner and coach to provide feedback. Outside of competition teams, this is almost impossible to do at a pay-to-train academy with members of the general public. It’s too demanding (mentally, as well as physically).
To tie this back to Calhoon’s point, it’s easy for an ex high level wrestler to find his way to a great BJJ academy. It’s really hard for an adult to find a great place to train wrestling. That infrastructure doesn’t exist many places. I think Edge in Hoboken is really an innovator here. But it’s a business model that would only succeed in areas with high level BJJ/MMA competitors.
(4) What transfers to BJJ v. what transfers to wrestling
I think wrestling has more things that transfer directly to BJJ (pins, scrambles, front headlocks, drags) than vice versa. A lot of the things that wrestlers bring allow them to dictate pace and position of BJJ rounds where the opposite isn’t necessarily true.
All of this is IMHO and there are definitely exceptions to these rules.
pbody -I'll probably catch shit for saying this, but Dillon Danis has excellent wrestling for a bjj guy. It's one of the reasons I believe he'll transition well to MMA.
I'll also add Pablo Popovitch to the list, as well as Cyborg Abreau. Keenan also has surprisingly good wrestling.
Funny that this posted while I was writing my post. In my thread, I mentioned Edge School of Wrestling as a rare breed of places where BJJ guys can learn to wrestle in a proper environment. I am 95% certain Danis learned to wrestle there.
Uhtred Ragnarson -2breath2feel -Maia's wrestling has kinda been exposed imo. His cardio is a big part of it but he looks very bad against wrestlers (Colby/woodley) and even in ones he won (laflare) just spamming telegraphed shots over and over. He is great on top but not good at getting it there from a takedown. Very good sweeps and clinch is decent. He hit a great throw on Chael but Chael is 100% forward pressure and susceptible to techniques like that
imo mma guys off top of my head:
jacare
arona
shields
bj
bocek
pellegrino
Come to think of it Jacare's offensive wrestling is seriously underrated. It seems like his striking almost always gets so much of the attention.
He may never be a champ, but I really do believe he's one of the most well rounded contenders the UFC has ever had.
jacare started off with Judo first, i believe
there is footage of Jacare training Judo at Edson Carvalho's school in jersey
beloved forum member Snakepitz teaches/did teach at that school for a long time
Uthred, find a wrestling club like everyone else is saying
i never realized how intricate and complicated wrestling was until my kid started
you wont learn those details wihtout live rolling and drilling wrestling only
Low T Low IQ -Uhtred Ragnarson -2breath2feel -Maia's wrestling has kinda been exposed imo. His cardio is a big part of it but he looks very bad against wrestlers (Colby/woodley) and even in ones he won (laflare) just spamming telegraphed shots over and over. He is great on top but not good at getting it there from a takedown. Very good sweeps and clinch is decent. He hit a great throw on Chael but Chael is 100% forward pressure and susceptible to techniques like that
imo mma guys off top of my head:
jacare
arona
shields
bj
bocek
pellegrino
Come to think of it Jacare's offensive wrestling is seriously underrated. It seems like his striking almost always gets so much of the attention.
He may never be a champ, but I really do believe he's one of the most well rounded contenders the UFC has ever had.
jacare started off with Judo first, i believe
there is footage of Jacare training Judo at Edson Carvalho's school in jersey
beloved forum member Snakepitz teaches/did teach at that school for a long time
Uthred, find a wrestling club like everyone else is saying
i never realized how intricate and complicated wrestling was until my kid started
you wont learn those details wihtout live rolling and drilling wrestling only
I think Jacare started in judo, as well.
I personally don’t think his MMA takedowns are as good as Maia’s. FWIW.
jgiveshead -Weidman?
Tough to beat Jake Shields in this conversation. Isn't he basically the guy behind the phrase American Jiu Jitsu?
Some JMMA guys come to mind. Kid Yamamoto, Hideo Tokoro, Saku, Barnett. I'd love some of the old timers to chime in on these JMMA suggested guys... I'm no authority by any stretch of the imagination. But Tokoro especially is one of the most active guys on the ground I've ever seen.
The scrambles between Nick Diaz and Diego Sanchez was the things dreams are made of.
Most of these guys started as wrestlers. Weidman was an All-American wrestler. The JMMA guys mostly wrestled, I think. I’m pretty sure Kid and Saku were college wrestlers. I mentioned Shields earlier, but he started in wrestling, too.
OP: Good wrestling clubs that cater to adults are few and far between. Another (perhaps easier) option is if you BJJ academy has any good wrestlers, to pay them for privates.
if we arnt just talking specifically takedowns or takedown defense I would have to say Jake Shields is the best all around wrestler/BJJ black belt in mma. his ability to dictate where a fight takes place in the grappling department at his peak was pretty unmatched, he pretty easily beat damian maia as well, who is all the rage in these BJJ threads since he dropped weight classes and strated strangling people smaller than him.
wiggum -pbody -I'll probably catch shit for saying this, but Dillon Danis has excellent wrestling for a bjj guy. It's one of the reasons I believe he'll transition well to MMA.
I'll also add Pablo Popovitch to the list, as well as Cyborg Abreau. Keenan also has surprisingly good wrestling.
Funny that this posted while I was writing my post. In my thread, I mentioned Edge School of Wrestling as a rare breed of places where BJJ guys can learn to wrestle in a proper environment. I am 95% certain Danis learned to wrestle there.
the original Edge wrestling (only) school is top notch
i want to send my kid there, but it is just too far for us
^^I think Shields is fantastic. I also think there was nothing easy about the Maia fight. Very close IMO.
I only read the first page but if nobody mentioned Arona, well, Arona.
Canooke - I only read the first page but if nobody mentioned Arona, well, Arona.
He was rightfully brought up later. You’re right.
Ricky Lundell was a BJJ blackbelt that became a very good wrestler. I dont believe he was ever eligible to compete in college, so he didn’t do anything with it, but Cael Sanderson thought highly of his wrestling abilities and tried to get him on a Division 1 team.
Dryfly - Ricky Lundell was a BJJ blackbelt that became a very good wrestler. I dont believe he was ever eligible to compete in college, so he didn't do anything with it, but Cael Sanderson thought highly of his wrestling abilities and tried to get him on a Division 1 team.
That’s a really familiar name, but I didn’t know that. Any more details on his story?
^^Found this article. Good stuff: MMA Submission: Ricky Lundell is changing college wrestling - ESPN
wiggum -Dryfly - Ricky Lundell was a BJJ blackbelt that became a very good wrestler. I dont believe he was ever eligible to compete in college, so he didn't do anything with it, but Cael Sanderson thought highly of his wrestling abilities and tried to get him on a Division 1 team.That’s a really familiar name, but I didn’t know that. Any more details on his story?
He was home schooled and went to college at 15.
Cael recruited him to wrestle for Iowa State when he was coaching there. NCAA would not ever grant him eligibility. I believe he is the only guy ever recruited to Division 1 with no folk experience.
He is a blackbelt under Pedro Sauer.
He now coaches several UFC fighters.
I know he has worked with Frank Mir and John Jones.
He is also the head wrestling coach at a competitive High School (Bishop Gorman)in Las Vegas, last I heard.
Dryfly -wiggum -Dryfly - Ricky Lundell was a BJJ blackbelt that became a very good wrestler. I dont believe he was ever eligible to compete in college, so he didn't do anything with it, but Cael Sanderson thought highly of his wrestling abilities and tried to get him on a Division 1 team.That’s a really familiar name, but I didn’t know that. Any more details on his story?
He was home schooled and went to college at 15.
Cael recruited him to wrestle for Iowa State when he was coaching there. NCAA would not ever grant him eligibility. I believe he is the only guy ever recruited to Division 1 with no folk experience.
He is a blackbelt under Pedro Sauer.
He now coaches several UFC fighters.
I know he has worked with Frank Mir and John Jones.
He is also the head wrestling coach at a competitive High School (Bishop Gorman)in Las Vegas, last I heard.
Good stuff. Thanks.