I'm trying to find out more concrete info regarding Bruce Lee's much-talked-about fencing influences. This is what I have so far:1. Lee's brother fenced in college.2. Lee used plenty of actual fencing terminology in his fighting notes that were ultimately published as the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. He even quoted from the treatise of the noted late 17th century Italian rapier master, Francesco Antonio Marcelli.3. Larry Harstell said that Lee scoured used and rare books stores for old boxing and fencing titles. Question: Has anyone ever published a bibliography of these texts? What became of Lee's library after his death? 4. Dan Inosanto said that, when it came to FMA, it was the larga mano stuff that Lee preferred, because of his background in epee fencing. Question:Did Lee himself fence, or was the formal training and practice something that only his brother had?And one more question...5. Does anyone know if Lee preferred one national school (French or Italian) over the other? For example, I would imagine that Lee would have been more concerned with the Italian tradition, if only because it retained it's real combative value comparatively late (ie., Italian fencers were still actually fighting duels in the late 19th and early 20th centuries).Any input would be greatly appreciated.
re: the readings, I can't help much. I also don't know about Lee's personal fencing history. However, in the realm of MA vs. Fencing, I can throw in some thoughts.
Principles in both:
-Everything is distance and timing.
-attack the closest target with the longest weapon (lunge to the near shoulder)
-rhythm is huge: get your partner off his natural rhythm
-footwork in bruce's books is clearly boxing/fencing
-forward burst is taken from the ballustra footwork
-straight blast resembles the fleche attack
-the "stop cut" is a major part of sabre
-simple, straightforward techniques, then add attributes, attributes, attributes
5 method of attack:
-any time the line opens, hit (Simple attack)
-any time the partner hogs centerline, beat attack (HIA)
-any time a partner responds to your attack, disengage and attack another line (ABC)
-feint one line and attack another (PIA)
-leave a line open to elicit a response (ABD)
Now some conjecture: Epee would make sense for Lee insofar as it's the only modern weapon in which you are allowed to hit anywhere on the body. It is also the only weapon that does not have "right of way" rules. In other words, any time you hit you score a point. (In foil and sabre, you do not score unless you had the "right of way", which is a complicated system of deciding whose turn it was to attack.) On the other hand, his reflexes and speed would have made him ideal for foil or sabre, and sabre is the weapon in which stop hitting is most frequent.
~TT
Actually, you can score in sabre and foil without right of way (it's called a remise). Right of way only counts in the case of a simultaneous touch. In sabre and foil, he who has right of way wins the point if there is a simultaneous touch, but in epee, both fencers would get a point.
Personally, I think that Bruce Lee might have been more influenced by the French school of fencing since there on guard seems to be more center-line oriented, but this is merely conjecture.
TwinkletoesCT & JKD/MMA,
I want to thank both of you for your input, but, with all due respect, it seems as if both of you harbor some misconceptions about fencing, especially regarding the convention of "right of way". Let's take a look at your respective posts...
Twinkletoes wrote:
Principles in both:
-Everything is distance and timing. -attack the closest target with the longest weapon (lunge to the near shoulder) -rhythm is huge: get your partner off his natural rhythm -footwork in bruce's books is clearly boxing/fencing -forward burst is taken from the ballustra footwork
The ballestra is a small hop followed by a lunge--could you therefore describe this "foward burst" from JKD?
-straight blast resembles the fleche attack -
Really? The fleche is a running attack, where you end up almost horizontal (ie., parallel with the strip or ground). It's about as commited as an attack can be--you're running forward because you've launched yourself forward, and are essentially off balance. How does this relate to the "straight blast" of JKD?
5 method of attack:
-any time the line opens, hit (Simple attack) -any time the partner hogs centerline, beat attack (HIA) -any time a partner responds to your attack, disengage and attack another line (ABC) -feint one line and attack another (PIA) -leave a line open to elicit a response (ABD)
Now some conjecture: Epee would make sense for Lee insofar as it's the only modern weapon in which you are allowed to hit anywhere on the body. It is also the only weapon that does not have "right of way" rules. In other words, any time you hit you score a point. (In foil and sabre, you do not score unless you had the "right of way", which is a complicated system of deciding whose turn it was to attack.) On the other hand, his reflexes and speed would have made him ideal for foil or sabre, and sabre is the weapon in which stop hitting is most frequent.
I've never taken a poll, so I'm not sure if stop-hitting is "most frequent" in saber, although one could make an argument for it, if only because saber has both thrusting and cutting actions. Keep in mind, however, that such counteroffensive actions are also very common in epee fencing--the lack of "right of way" simplifies things on the tactical level, for then the fencer doesn't have to be concerned as to whether or not the opponent is really presenting a line (ie., has his weapon fully extended), etc.
JKD/MMA wrote:
Actually, you can score in sabre and foil without right of way (it's called a remise). Right of way only counts in the case of a simultaneous touch. In sabre and foil, he who has right of way wins the point if there is a simultaneous touch, but in epee, both fencers would get a point.
The remise and related actions (the redoublement and reprise) are all executed from the lunge, and are used against an opponent who delays his riposte after parrying (ie., his riposte is a temps perdu).
As for "right of way", please let me break it down as thus:
"Right of way" is a convention (rule) that encourages good parrying habits. The basic concept is that, if Fencer A executes an attack, Fencer B must parry that attack before attacking himself. If Fencer B merely counterattacks, and gets hit himself during the exchange (simultaneous touches), then the point goes to Fencer A, because Fencer B did not parry.
In epee, there is no "right of way", because the epee was a duelling weapon, and the maestros of the time recognized that, in a duel, if both fencers get hit, both will be hurt. Hence, in a simultaneous touch situation, each fencer is awarded a point.
Personally, I think that Bruce Lee might have been more influenced by the French school of fencing since there on guard seems to be more center-line oriented, but this is merely conjecture.
Could you please explain why you feel the French guard is more "center-line oriented"? If anything, the reverse seems to be true--Italian foilists make use of what Aldo Nadi termed as the "central position", where the fencer holds his foil "in neutral" (as we French-trained fencers call it). In this position, the fencer is technically open on both the inside and outside lines, which contrasts with the standard French guard of sixte, where the outside line is completely closed. However, the apparent vulnerablity of the Italian guard is balanced by the fact that the fencer needs to move his weapon only half the distance to close either line.
Because of the above (as well as the issue of duelling practice, which I mentioned in my original post), I again submit that Lee would probably have preferred the Italian method.
Peace,
TFS
Hey TFS,
I learnt the Italian method of fencing. At the time my Maestro always taught me to hold my guard in parry 3rd.........ie holding the foil in an outside parry position. All I had to worry about was a parry 4 (inside parry) or a parry 1st.
A little tid bit that I was also taught......the pommel or butt of my foil was STRAPPED to my wrist. Unlike the french method where it could get "wristy" in their moves.....the Italian method I learnt hardly had any wrist play, and the sword and forearm moved as one.
LOL!!!!........oops......sorry Dhira......I should have said "the french style gracefully articulate their wrists......"
ooooohh........I think that sounds worse....LOL!!!!!
Hi Ray!I learnt the Italian method of fencing. At the time my Maestro always taught me to hold my guard in parry 3rd.........ie holding the foil in an outside parry position. All I had to worry about was a parry 4 (inside parry) or a parry 1st.Interesting.When you say that your maestro taught you to hold your guard in "parry 3rd", do you mean the French guard of tierce (hand in pronation), or the Italian invitation of terza (hand in supination, like the standard French guard of sixte)?Both Aldo Nadi and Luigi Barbasetti describe the "central position" guard that I described (though only Nadi terms it as such). The French guard of sixte, therefore, would be considered an invitation. A little tid bit that I was also taught......the pommel or butt of my foil was STRAPPED to my wrist.Ah yes, the ol' Italian wrist strap. Unlike the french method where it could get "wristy" in their moves.....the Italian method I learnt hardly had any wrist play, and the sword and forearm moved as one.A common misconception about the wrist strap is that it does not allow for finger-play, but this is far from true. The wrist strap actually allows one to use very delicate finger manipulation, since there is no danger of being disarmed. However, I always found infighting to be awkward with the wrist strap, to put it mildly--having the weapon bound to one's hand makes angulation difficult (ie., that whole lack o' wrist-play that you mentioned).TFSP.S. Ray--thanks for your words of encouragement on my "MA Crossroads" thread (regarding my eye problem)--I feel a certain sense of brotherhood with you, since we share the whole Western fencing/FMA background deal (albeit on a lower level in my case!). The moral support is appreciated.
Hi TFS,
I have to plead ignorance with the correct terminology. When I was learning, my Maestro tried to teach me the "theory and history"; but I just told him to number things for simplicity and just teach me how to win tournaments.......ahh, the impatience of youth.
I will try to describe my hand, arm position.
From the normal en garde posture, my sword (I'll assume right handed) is aligned so that it is a perfectly straight line from the tip of my foil down to my elbow.
The knuckles of my sword hand is in line with the outside of my lead shoulder.
Forearm is slighly held above elbow height, so that my hand is level with my sternum and the point of my sword at eye level.
The thing is - even though my hand is on the "outside" line.....the point of my sword is held in just of centre line to the right.
It should look like your entire torso was open to an attack.
Holding this position will probably give you body RSI..but it worked well for me.
You are also correct in saying that the wrist strap gives you precise and subtle finger control of your point.........We used to practise making small cirles with the point (the size of a quarter) by just using our thumb and index finger.
Close in work was a bit of a hassle, but the position we adopted when up close was we turned our wrist upsidedown so that it resembled an exaggerated Wing Chun "Bong Sao" (sp?) and held the foil handle above our heads and thrusted downwards..
TFS.........do seriously consider mixing your fencing with BASIC knife or stick FMA moves. IT DOES WORK EFFECTIVELY.
The second day I met GM Ilustrisimo, he got me to spar his guys......I had no idea about striking or blocking the FMA way, and had to rely solely on fencing moves.....I did exceptionally well against them (I have this on video).
When I did my seminar in LA on my last trip.....KWJ-K-Dhira attended my seminar. Afterwards, we sparred......he had excellent explosive fencing footwork, his distancing and timing was spot on.......he was kicking ass!!!!!!!
Alternatively...give me a couple of hours with you, and you'll be right.
I also feel a brotherhood with you, as I do with many great people I have met so far.....what can I say.......kindred spirits
Ray,
I have to plead ignorance with the correct terminology.
That's OK--fencing terminology can be as confusing and inconsistent as FMA terminology! :)
When I was learning, my Maestro tried to teach me the "theory and history"; but I just told him to number things for simplicity and just teach me how to win tournaments.......ahh, the impatience of youth.
Indeed--but clearly, it worked for you!
I will try to describe my hand, arm position.
From the normal en garde posture, my sword (I'll assume right handed) is aligned so that it is a perfectly straight line from the tip of my foil down to my elbow.
A proper blade/arm orientation, to be sure.
The knuckles of my sword hand is in line with the outside of my lead shoulder.
Do you mean that the knuckles are facing outwards (ie., half-supinated)?
Forearm is slighly held above elbow height, so that my hand is level with my sternum and the point of my sword at eye level.
The thing is - even though my hand is on the "outside" line.....the point of my sword is held in just of centre line to the right.
It should look like your entire torso was open to an attack.
Judging by the orientation of the point, and the fact that your outside line was completely closed, it sounds as if you were using the French guard of sixte--the standard French guard position. However, since your maestro described it as "parry 3rd", perhaps you were using the French guard of tierce (the same as sixte, only that the hand is pronated--knuckles up). The Italian invitation of terza is the same, except that the point is off-line (because it's an invitation). Therefore, my earlier referral to the French guard being considered an invitation by the Italians is incorrect, since the point is still in-line, and hence threatening the opponent (sorry for that mistake--I'm still trying to figure out the particulars of the Italian school, and how they view things).
It's wierd, because the "classic" Italian foil guard is, as I described, open on both the outside and inside lines--something which is considered to be a "mistake" in the French school. The following description comes from William Gaugler's Science of Fencing:
"In the completed guard the weight of the body should be distributed equally between the legs, with the torso profiled, and inclining slightly forward, head up and turned to the right, eyes on the adversary, shoulders down, right arm well extended and relaxed, elbow in line with the flank, hand in central position on the line of offense, midway between invitations in third and fourth, and forearm and weapon forming an unbroken line."
Everything above is the same as in the French guard of sixte, except for the placement of the weapon/hand midway between terza and quarta (sixte and quarte in the French system). This stuff can sometimes be a bit confusing, since the Italian and French numbering systems are different--some parry/guards share the same numbers, and some don't.
The French penchant for coming on guard in sixte is also facilitated by the type of foil they use--the "set" of the blade--where the blade is angled inwards (what the French call l'avantage), allows the French foilist to have his outside line (sixte) closed, while still directing the point towards the opponent. The Italian foil, which features a perfectly straight blade and handle, is more awkward to use in this fashion.
Holding this position will probably give you body RSI..but it worked well for me.
RSI?
You are also correct in saying that the wrist strap gives you precise and subtle finger control of your point.........We used to practise making small cirles with the point (the size of a quarter) by just using our thumb and index finger.
I was pleasantly surprised by this, when I first tried using a wrist strap.
Close in work was a bit of a hassle, but the position we adopted when up close was we turned our wrist upsidedown so that it resembled an exaggerated Wing Chun "Bong Sao" (sp?) and held the foil handle above our heads and thrusted downwards..
I'll have to try that.
TFS.........do seriously consider mixing your fencing with BASIC knife or stick FMA moves. IT DOES WORK EFFECTIVELY.
I already do! :)
I have found my saber training to be especially effective in FMA knife sparring. At our school, we used to spar with fencing masks and those hard neoprene replicas of AF daggers. Unlike quite a few of my fellow students, I already had plenty of stop-hitting experience. I found delivering cuts to the hand of my opponent to be no problem at all.
I also found by bouting experience from both foil and saber to be useful, as it has given me a good sense of timing and distance. I remember knife sparring against one fellow who had apparently trained extensively in Systema knife defenses, but I honestly don't think he had done much in the way of free-sparring with the knife. I was able to repeatedly land hand shots and face cuts on him.
The second day I met GM Ilustrisimo, he got me to spar his guys......I had no idea about striking or blocking the FMA way, and had to rely solely on fencing moves.....I did exceptionally well against them (I have this on video).
Man, I'd love to see that!
When I did my seminar in LA on my last trip.....KWJ-K-Dhira attended my seminar. Afterwards, we sparred......he had excellent explosive fencing footwork, his distancing and timing was spot on.......he was kicking ass!!!!!!!
That's great!
Alternatively...give me a couple of hours with you, and you'll be right.
I'm sure! That would most certainly be awesome.
I also feel a brotherhood with you, as I do with many great people I have met so far.....what can I say.......kindred spirits
Likewise.
Salute!
TFS
We should market a "brand" of martial arts and call it "Combat Fencing" or "Street Fencing" or something corny and gimmicky.......
I saw an ad once for "Druid Martial Arts"...?!?!!??
"Druid Martial Arts"?!
lol
*sneaks behind grove, changes robes, walks onto thread*
Druid MAs?!?!?! That's STUPID!! Who would do that shit? LOL!
Seriously, because of talks with Dhira I took a small non-credit course in Fencing and it has RADICALLY improved my stick and knife game.
I had bought into the "don't thrust w/ a stick, it'll just get you wacked" idea, so I rarely worked on it.
Now coupled with the fencing footwork and PROPER preparation (not to mention timing) I RELISH the effect that a thrust has. It's quite satisfying.
However, I should add that I use it sparingly and if I can draw a circular "frenzy" from my partners (I wack the bee's nest) it fits in pretty good.
Nice thread developing here. Usually the case when TFS posts just about anything.
All the best,
Joe
Hi Joe,
There is nothing more sublime than getting a good thrust into the opponents face........LOL
Go to the link below.....it's my other forum, and it's a video clip of me and Bolo "sword" sparring.
Towards the end of the clip, I got bored with hitting so I started thrusting.......with satisfying results.
I'm the one with the white helmet and shorts.....laughing a lot :-)
http://www.stick-and-knife.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=ki;action=display;num=1079345404
Yeas, I saw enjoyed those when Jen posted them before. It is a nice confirmation to see I am on the right track when I see the pros doing it.
One caveat to those just getting into it though...one time I thrusted and the stick landed right on my partners windpipe. He was coming in and I caught him. He made a gurgle sound and dropped like a ton of bricks. I thought I killed him.
Was REAL scary, but he was alright. Wear neck protection.
Throws supply of cloaks & candles in garbage
"Druid MAs?!?!?! That's STUPID!! Who would do that shit? LOL!"
Ha! Dumbasses!
There is nothing more sublime than getting a good thrust into the opponents face........LOL Go to the link below.....it's my other forum, and it's a video clip of me and Bolo "sword" sparring. Towards the end of the clip, I got bored with hitting so I started thrusting.......with satisfying results. I'm the one with the white helmet and shorts.....laughing a lot :-) http://www.stick-and-knife.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=ki;action=display;num=1079345404Ray,Those clips are great--you folks are wickedly fast and accurate.Peace,TFS
TFS: You should see his knife and stick vids of sparring as well.
Yeah, it's neat to see that when things are trained alive, it all starts looking the same.
*Whilst scrounging through trash can comes across extensive supply of cloaks and candles*
Hey guys, I've just uncovered this ultra-secret style of ancient martial arts...
It's all based around the mystical fighting ways of the druids... and those dudes had to be bad what with all the dragons and goblins about...
It's a stick based system that druids used to use to defend themselves - them carrying staffs and all... It's remarkable resemblance to Ray's FFS is in no way related to my having trained with him... I was taught all that stuff long ago by an old celtic hermit... the last of his line in fact...
Join now!!! You can be a Black Belt in the ancient combat art of Druidic Combat Fencing for only $1000!!!
Tim.