Played out and stupid thread Homie, get over it!
"If Gene Labelle was so good why didn't he impress everyone by throwing them and made his own films instead?"
thats kinda silly don't you think? success in SHOW BUSINESS has nothing to do with fighting skill or even acting talent ;-) just look at the asthetics of Jean Claude Van Damme. from all accounts, Bruce Lee was a very charasmatic guy who knew how to market the esoteric quality of martial arts (and asian culture in general) to the American audience.
i think bashing Lee is about as useful and healthy as worshipping him. the fact of the matter is that all his "fights" are non-documented here-say, second hand (at best) accounts. of course, you cannot deny that he had great physical prowess for a man of his stature and was ahead of his time in the pursuit of phsyical fitness and culture. he did advocate cross-training in the US before it became mainstream but because nothing that he did combatively and realistically has every truly been documented (like the Gracie Challenge and the Early UFC's) then i can't give him the credit for the formation of MMA in the US. those props go to Royce for putting it on the line, in probably the crudest, and truest test of one on one, empty hand combat.
the Brazilians had been doing Vale Tudo and limited rules training since Helio's days in the 30's. and as far as cross-training ... well the Lutra-Livre/Ruas people had been inorporating Boxing and Muay Thai, along with wrestling (boxing and wrestling being practically universal as the only true general forms of combat) so that fits closer to the MMA model then anything Bruce Lee did. (which was only cinematically anyway) any true grappling training that was done was incorporated in a very crude and low-level manner since there was not enough time to delve into that range.
which makes me wonder ... if a person like Bruce Lee who was always advocating the eye jab, groin shot, shin kick ... would have the humility to set that aside and learn a combat sport where most of his physical attributes (which were developed to improve STAND UP STRIKINg speed and power) would do very little to help him improve. some say he was a man with a huge ego due to his celebrity and phsyical prowess. and it takes alot to shelf that and put on a white belt and get choked and armbarred all day.
I trained in JKD for 8 years shortly after BL's death. If I could do it over again, I would dedicate those same 8 years to boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, Judo and Sambo (BJJ wasn't around in the states in those days).
Bruce Lee was innovative within the realms of where he came from (CMA, Wing Chun). Unfortunately, I believe he was also a by-product of those same things and, thus, was probably limited in reaching his full potential as a fighter because of this.
Wicked thread!!!
Unprecedented!!!
Groundbreaking!!!
I support your cause!!!
Rickson by aura, beatch.
I just had this conversation with another guy who wanted to start karate.i was trying to explain to him if he wants to learn self defense he needs to take some bjj and muay thai.He strongly disagreed and bruce lee came flying out of his mouth.I had explain the whole movie star and filming thing to him.
"Your biased to anything asian. How dare you speak of logic with that mentality. "
Ad hominem. Try again.
I think we can all agree Rickson and Funaki had the advantage of seeing MMA and practicing it on a daily basis some 20 years after Bruce had no chance to do the same.
While I agree with the consumate Bruce-Lee-Hater lmfdkjhal that many styles are a combination of two masters, that hardly equates to the concept of a style obliteration and techniques tailored to your body type and talent base.
I also agree that Helio more actively searched out people to challenge and test his skills against. Bruce did not have that personality type and much like Rickson, felt no need to go hunting the best of the best to fight. Helio and Rickson also had the advantage of being a master of a grappling art, one that is defensive by nature and greatly reduces your chances of getting hurt if applied with correct technique. Anyone who knows Muay Thai knows the injury rate, especially years ago before modern protection. A master of a brutal striking art going around before solid protective gears existed extending challenges to the best of the best would be playing with fire, esp when you take into account that many of the arts of the time did study strikes to the throat and eyes.
I just think the haters come off as a bit obscene and smug in this case.
movie star with nothing backing his ability except some seminars.If he would have tested his ability against other well known fighters people could argue the fact that he was very skilled for his size.but all lee left us was some movies of him beating up 12 guys on set.people like the gracies who came up with bjj and put it to test against other skilled fighters and will be remembered.its like saying rocky balboa could have been the boxing heavy weight champion .
- "that hardly equates to the concept of a style obliteration and techniques tailored to your body type and talent base."
So you are claiming that Bruce was the first to suggest these things?
Zhangrenmen was created in China around 1920ish, it is the "natural school" which embraces no forms or set techniques. It is based upon the idea that human movement, obtained naturally, will generate the proper technique. NOt sure I buy any of that, but it is a concept that was embraced years before Bruce Lee
When Wnag Lang created Praying Mantis in the 1870's, 100 years before Bruce, he chose from over 17 different sources, clearly going beyond a loyalty to one style, or even one TYPE of style
As far as techniques tailored to your body type;
Long Fist was designed for tall people with long limbs.
Lung Yihng was designed for short people with short limbs and limited hip mobility
Contemporary Hung Ga is in fact a "butcher's style" in that most of it's techniques are strongly influenced by the strong hands of one of it's famous fighters, who was a butcher, Lam Sai Wing
The list goes on...
IF calling things as they are and pointing out facts that don't agree with the party line makes you a "hater" then I'll gladly apply for my membership card
be well
as far as everyone who is citing him as a great philosopher ...
from hearing his interview and some of HIS writings you can see that he was a pretty smart guy and for the most part well-informed and multi-cultural in his education and view of the world.
HOWEVER - the TAO of JKD to my knowledge, was not something that BL wrote and had published in his lifetime. he DID NOT "write a book" IIRC what happenend was after his death, people with access to his notes and drawings decided to put something together in order to further his legacy and make a buck. there was a lot of stuff to work from. most of it, OTHER people's philosophy and quotations that he liked and learned from. particularly Alan Watts and Krishnamurti. in fact i remember one Inside Kung Fu article where they showcase Krishnamurti's philosophical influence on BL and they compare certain sayings about truth and indivuality and freedom of expression, and what you basically see is that BL just takes out the word "religion" and replaces it with "classical style" or changes the word "self" and puts in "punch" or "kick" he's basically para-phrasing for his own personal edification. he was not some guru or genius putting his thoughts down like some sort of memoir or manifesto.
same holds true for his drawings and illustrations. a lot copied from the old Jack Dempsey "Championship Boxing" book and other Savate, Judo, and Jiu-Jitsu manuals. again, i'm not saying he's a plagarist or anything, becasue it was never his intention to WRITE A BOOK. just make movies, work out real hard, and bang hot chicks (not his wife obviously) on 2 continents.
he deserves credit for being ahead of his time, i would say more in the social multi-cultural sense, and in physical training, as opposed to realistic and documented combat (people just need to put that to rest) the first two reasons IMO are for more impressive and admirable. and of course he introduced and inspired more than one generation to pursue some form of martial arts as well.
for those people involved in JKD as a form of combat training, and are fond of tracing your connection back to Bruce Lee. some in the 80's may have had a leg up on that present MMA vision with the introduction of muay thai, shoot-wrestling, and eventually BJJ into the JKD concepts curriculum ... before even the first UFC's came along. the credit to that should go to guys like Dan Inosanto, Paul Vunak, and Hal Faukner (one of the first to train BJJ in the post Bruce/pre Royce Era) not Bruce ... try to keeps it real on that ;)
stop comparing Bruce, a martial artist from the 60's and 70's to modern MMA fighters.
you guys are just stupid.
Bruce was an innovator and in all likelihood a pretty good streetfighter. Nobody claims he would beat today's fighters, but no doubt if he were alive today he would be training judo and bjj. His philosophy was to adapt to what worked.
That's the main diff. between the gracies and bruce.
Bruce would have adapted to new styles instead of clinging to old ones.
The gracies still try to push their grappling only bullshit, refusing to be complete fighters.
Bruce made some great movies and smoked some nice Js
He also retold the theory of MMA in a mainstream format.
Thats about it
If you simply look at the names Bruce is being unfavorably compared to you can see what sort of company even his detractors are forced to place him with.
Since Bruce Lee wasn't "a fighter", who was? Anyone who fought for prize money? Todd Hayes? A fighter? Numerous now cripple teens who fought for 2 years in the Muay Thai circut with basic techniques crammed into them?
Is Frank Shamrock a fighter? Rickson? Are they fighters? Do you have to keep fighting to remain a fighter or if you stop and refuse to step up to the latest or greatest competition do you stop being a fighter?
Were 1930's boxers fighters?
"That's the main diff. between the gracies and bruce.
Bruce would have adapted to new styles instead of clinging to old ones.
The gracies still try to push their grappling only bullshit, refusing to be complete fighters."
OH REALLY?!?
yeah ... the way Royce Gracie punched, low kicked, and high kicked (with his strong side forward, no less! ;-) and stalked Keith Hackney, once Hackney discovered the mystical, secret SPRAWL technique (that had been hidden in an old Kenpo form) really shows how much Royce clung to just BJJ and one style.
if you watch that fight (which is the beauty of having DOCUMENTED fights) in UFC 4 or 5 i believe, Royce's takedown attempted gets stopped twice by Hackney ... Royce ADAPTS and changes TACTICS by punching, kicking and driving Hackney into the fence where he proceeds to put him in a double-neck tie and throw alternating knees (looks like muay thai) before eventually pulling guard and working from his position of strength.
he showed a little bit of all ranges in that fight, but more importantly he ADAPTED LIKE WATER showed intelligence in his technique and tactics. all things Bruce Lee would theorize and talk about but only that guys like Royce were able to SHOW AND DO in real life.
"Since Bruce Lee wasn't "a fighter", who was? Anyone who fought for prize money"
People who could practically apply their theory on fighting against a resisting top opponent.
Apidej Sit Hirun or any top nakmuay from thailand
Your choice of pro boxer around that time period
Your choice of high level grappler at that time period
"People who could practically apply their theory on fighting against a resisting top opponent."
Just one opponent from the same school of fighting? So basically any Aikido student who fought full contact against somebody from a rival school once and had it filmed is a fighter?
Bruce Lee is famous for his movies, not his fighting, not his teaching, not his ideas on martial arts. As hard as people may want to argue about that, it's true.
Who did he teach in his lifetime? If Bruce Lee had never made a movie do you think people today would be doing JKD? If Bruce Lee had never made a movie, would Dan Inostanto be sought out around the world to do seminars?
To Americans with limited exposure to martial arts and who had been fed BS from day one, he may have seemed revolutionary and unique. But in most cases, his ideas were alive and well in other places, just being done by people who did't go on to make major motion pictures
Also, stop trying to make it personal, it's just about facts vs perceptions
"Your choice of high level grappler at that time period "
Hayward nishioka was a national champ and high level Judoka from that period. He said bruce was an awesome fighter and would kick his ass.
"Just one opponent from the same school of fighting? So basically any Aikido student who fought full contact against somebody from a rival school once and had it filmed is a fighter?"
Sure if an Aikido student fought another Aikido student in a documented fullcontact fight i would call them a fighter. Doesnt mean they are any good at it but still a fighter nonetheless