TTT. Great thread.
Takase makes other fighters look boring because Takase is an extremely boring fighter who unfortunately is skilled enough to shut others down.
He's bad for the sport, and extactly the kind of fighter PrideFC rules (according to their press release after Mino/Rico) are designed to discourage.
Brennan was right about Takase after his fight. Win or lose, I would pay to watch Newton again. Unless Takase changes his style, I will try to avoid any future matches involving him.
Why is it that when a person tries subs but is only close on a few of them over the course of a fight, they are trying to finish? I saw the fight and most of the sub attempts did not look close at all except for a few. Carlos defended them extememly wel l. If a person was throwing a lot of strikes, but all but a few of those strikes missed would they get credit for attempting to finish the fight? I guess I just don't get it.
To me, Carlos worked harder than Takase, was more active, and tried harder to push the pace of the fight. I respect Takase and his skills on the ground, but I think that he is the one who actually stalled the pace of the fight much more than Carlos. And why does a fighter not get any credit for successfully defending subs? Seems to me that at least some weight should be given to that, as it requires a lot of skill, IMHO.
Respectfully:
Fred
d
WTH! I posted this on a completely different thread i thought :) Sorry for the weird out of place post.
I thought Newton won the fight. He was more active landed more strikes and dominated takedowns. Takase went for a few subs and landed an uppercut I don't see how that adds up. Takase though skilled is not someone I would pay to see fight.
I always enjoy your insights, Fred. My humble opinions follow:
"Why is it that when a person tries subs but is only close on a few of them over the course of a fight, they are trying to finish? I saw the fight and most of the sub attempts did not look close at all except for a few. Carlos defended them extememly well."
I thought Takase was a whisker away from sinking that triangle, but I agree that Newton's defense was solid overall.
"If a person was throwing a lot of strikes, but all but a few of those strikes missed would they get credit for attempting to finish the fight? I guess I just don't get it."
Well, I think there's a distinction to be made here. Newton's efforts in the guard could be interpreted as throwing short shots to appear busy. If he was more committed to striking he would have probably gotten more credit from the judges.
"To me, Carlos worked harder than Takase, was more active, and tried harder to push the pace of the fight."
I think Carlos looked a little slower than usual. He may have been in motion more than Takase, but PRIDE judges won't credit that.
"I respect Takase and his skills on the ground, but I think that he is the one who actually stalled the pace of the fight much more than Carlos. And why does a fighter not get any credit for successfully defending subs? Seems to me that at least some weight should be given to that, as it requires a lot of skill, IMHO."
It was a really close fight. PRIDE judging favors the fighter who's looking for the finish, even if its at the expense of the fighter with the higher workrate. That said, I'd still call it a draw.
TH
The return of tape lord has cometh! :)
Guy Mezger if you drop your hands ill knock you out! Vanderlei Silva on his old match with Guy Mezger!
Thanks for your observations, Hackett. I agree that it was a very close fight, and I also admit to some possible bias in favor of Carlos as I think he is an excellent fighter and found him to be an extraordinarily nice person when I met him at UFC 45. Ho wever much I try to look at a fight unbiased, it is entirely possible that I see things more favorably for Carlos, in this case. If I had the tape, I'd watch it again. I also know that my criteria for judging a fight and Pride's are not exactly the same either.
With all that being said, I still think Carlos pulled it off, though. (:-)
Respectfully:
Fred
*
I like Carlos as a fighter, and especially since he is one of the few Canadians that are at teh level right now. BUT, he didn't win that fight IMO as he didn't try to pass much, he didn't 'rear back' in guard to lay the bombs down when he did GNP, he didn't really hurt Takase that much more than he got hurt, and takedowns should really only score points if they show that you are asserting your game (but since Takase is a guard player with limited striking ability that is questionable).
Carlos, why didn't you try and open Takase's guard more? (or maybe you did try a lot, and I just missed it). If you didn't want to have it opened (to either pass or back out to standing), what was your plan (KO him from within the guard, or was it control him and get the 'easy' win)? Given that Minowa lost to Ryan Gracie in much the same decision, can you really say it was a case of favouring the Japanese (especially when Takase himself has a contraversial loss to Nino in The Best (done by DSE/Pride))?
Pulsar, the Ricco/Mino decision still looks great. Fighters are going for the finish. I like it.
"I agree that it was a very close fight, and I also admit to some possible bias in favor of Carlos as I think he is an excellent fighter and found him to be an extraordinarily nice person when I met him at UFC 45."
That's really cool, Fred. I've never met him, but I've heard nothing but good things about Carlos personally. From what I've read in your posts, I'd wager you have lots of philosophy in common and stuff to talk about.
Anyway, I like Sothy's assessment of the fight. Minowa similarly did not get much credit for his ground & pound tactics.
C'est la vie ;)
TH
"Pulsar, the Ricco/Mino decision still looks great. Fighters are going for the finish. I like it."
Hey no worries, I respect your opinion. I think it's absolutely rediculous that you can throw some sub attempts out that really arent on, and win (and you know my allegiances for styles). Sure he finsihed A Silva with it, but it wasn't going to finish Newton, and Newton dominated every other part of the fight.
I still think it's dumb, and thank god majority opinion is with Newton on this one.
the japanese HATE carlos because of the constant reminder provided my his enormous cup. he must finish to win, period!
LOL
Hot Potato- Good luck brotha
"PRIDE judging favors the fighter who's looking for the finish"
I think that the fact that Carlos generally tried to keep the fight standing and bang, unlike Ricco, showed that he WAS trying to finish. He saw that he wasn't doing much damage on the ground, so typically only went for the takedown when Takase got the clinch and it seemed like going to the ground was inevitable.
It's a really tough call. I'm not sure who I would have decided for. Takase went for numerous subs, which is how a sub fighter finishes opponents; no one finishes opponents with weak guard punches.
Hmm, I thought that Takase's constant threatening with the triangle/omoplata was very cool. It totally took Carlos out of his gameplan and Carlos was much less active than usual. I thought Carlos was just holding on to survive while in Takase's guard. And I thought the standup didn't really do much, Takase rocked Newton with that huge uppercut as much as Newton rocked him (not very much, really). That said, I would've probably given it a draw, but I guess draws aren't legal anymore so I would've given it to Takase.
You're all wrong, it was a victory for Gracie Jiu-jitsu