. 
People take this stuff too seriously. The worst thing that happens is you lose, not the end of the world. That's the beauty of grappling. Are the catch rules a perfect simulation of a street fight? Of course not. Neither is BJJ, freestyle, MMA, boxing or anything else. But they all give you a chance to test different aspects of your game. 
Good post rbl
I see a lot of standing grappling to earn that top position, and not be exposed to a pin. Sounds interesting to me.
Welcome
Topsyjt knows a thing or two about grappling. Look him up ;-)
caseharts -Ministry of Truth -I wrestled and I'm sure there's untrained guys that can stop my takedown but in a one on one match I'm confident I can get on top of them in most cases.caseharts -Ministry of Truth -I'm a small guy. I'd never play guard in the street. That's a terrible idea unless you're like Caio Terra lol. I'm going to take you down or run.mada -Ministry of Truth -mada - The pins force you to fight for top position and this is essential to wrestling. Also, whoever said that the pins aren't applicable to real life is wrong. Playing bottom on asphalt is what's not applicable to real life. These rules force the exact kind of game that Rickson was saying he wishes people in bjj would use. Just my opinion
I disagree. In real life, you aren't always the better wrestler, or the bigger person. Further, in a self-defense situation, you could be taken down by surprise (ambush, struck with object, etc.). Either way, having a strong guard game is key to survival or even attacking in such situations, both of which aren't supported by the rules of this tournament.
I don't get those being pissed about the pins, though. It's a Catch tournament, so of course the rules are for Catch style.
I think you missed my point or i wasn't very clear. Having a strong guard game is not ideal for fighting imo unless you mean strong as in sweeps or creating scrambles to get you back to a better position. I'm a bjj guy but i think laying on your back playing guard is a bad idea in a fight. Again, that's just my opinion and full disclosure I'm 6'3 and 260 so I'm sure I'm biased.
I didn't miss your point and I think it was clear enough. I just think that for smaller guys, the possibility of playing guard is a serious reality in a real fight. You have to train for reality in self-defense, and if a tournament is supposed to be some sort of measure of it (especially if open weight), you can't ignore the need for a competent guard at the very least. I agree that sweeps are probably best, but if that's not an option and breaking an arm is, that's still a good self-defense move. With pins this really doesn't seem like an option (or like real life as you wrote), since you can easily be pinned just by setting an armbar up or similar attack up.
Considering your size, I understand you are biased. We all probably are. Personally, I'm a medium sized guy. I would think against most in the street I would not end up on the bottom. Problem is, there are still a lot of guys much bigger than me (or better wrestlers), so I can't just hope for the best if the occasion I need to defend myself does occur and I am taken down.
I guess to summarize my point if you get taken down in a street fight by a bigger guy or better wrestler, he isn't going to beat you by pinning you. Further, if you can break his bones (or sweep, etc.) from the bottom you fare a much better chance of winning/survival.
I would never make that choice either. Problem is, it might not be a choice.
Any untrained douche with zero skills could take you by surprise and tackle you at any time.
Not a fan of pinning in free etc. AT ALL, and will always refuse to wrestle under those rules but a CATCH pin is a different story altogether.
I really love these rules actually. I would prefer them if the guard, backmount, armbar and triangle positions weren't considered pins (or perhaps a longer count?), but otherwise I think it's great. Makes for a more active and more effective game, and I'm the type to pull guard. I'm sure I'd suck at catch, but the rules are pretty great.
Any way to get a tournament in Vermont?
In my opinion having pins as well as submissions is more pure in a martial art's and general fighting/self-defense scenario and here is why. A pin immobilizes and completely controls and is a huge part of various grappling art's such as wrestling and judo. So while they do not finish a opponent (although some can) they do allow one to supremely dominate a position. Let's use the example of a CACC wrestler and a BJJ guy in a streetfight with no ref to call stalling and both men use only there respected A pin serves the wrestler the purpose of immobilization, positional dominance, and it kills the cardio of the person who is being pinned if they are held in it for any reasonable length of time.
When we compete in BJJ based only tournaments that only award for positions and not for pins a crucial part of a wrestler's game is taken away and is called stalling when infact it is a debilitating and control oriented form of offensive wrestling. Barnett simply destroyed Lister's guard by good posture and one move which is a pinning combination called the cradle. He was offensively controlling the fight as well as forcing Lister to hold his weight which killed his cardio yet the referee still warned Barnett for stalling. In otherwords BJJ based grappling structure penalizes the wrestler for pinnig and calls it stalling henceforth rendering one of the biggest tools he has useless.
This literally changes the whole way one grapples and if this rule wasn't in effect that a pin=stalling/penalty grappling as a whole would look totally different. Having said that I understand the apprehension people have about counting pins as a fall but in all reality it is very hard to be pinned if you don't want to be. Furthermore I believe allowing pins or at least counting pins as points is crucial to the advancement of pure grappling not BJJ favored sport grappling (which I also love).
In short grappling competition's for years have been suited in the favor of a passive aggressive and have penalized the pin by taking away points for a stall and in doing so we have been cheated as grapplers by not having a fair rule set that accommodates all the various Wrestlers have had to completely alter a huge chunk of their game just to compete without penalty. Had the rules been so that a pin would never be called a stall and have been considered at least "back points" you would find grappling looks totally different when left untainted by rules set to stack the deck in favor of a certain
I could see Eastern Euro Jodokas doing really well with this ruleset. If you could get this out to the Russian Sambo and Judo dudes in Brooklyn and Queens, they might make the trip out to central Jersey.
How long are the pins? Judo 25 second pins are a different story than fast wrestling pins imo.
Josh Barnett -This.
Learn what the rules are and go wrestle! Every chance to get on the mat is an opportunity for growth!
In the case of wrestling a style that makes you challenge the game you already use...then that's the EXACT reason you should do it. Limiting yourself to only what you're comfortable with or what you feel you can win at is a lesson in self-defeat and stagnating growth.
Now go challenge yourselves!
Josh
MTH -If the pins are inger, like 10 seconds, I think it sounds awesome.stevekt - Do you have to pass guard to pin?Don't think so.
The rules on the website define a "pin" as both shoulder blades on the ground for a ref 3 count.
So if you're in guard and hear the ref start counting, you better sit up, get to a side, or otherwise make something happen.
I don't think folks are bothered by the fact that pins are allowed, I think they're just a little confused about the opening post's claim that the rules are "neutral."
Sub
I'm a BJJ guy with a little Judo and I would love to compete. This tourney is too far away though.
If someone has a sub locked and is actively working to finish it, that will not be counted as a pin. The only way someone can "pin themselves" is if they are playing a passive game and just laying. I think that it would be a rare situation. Here is an example of someone getting the win from bottom from last year.
NACWA -
If someone has a sub locked and is actively working to finish it, that will not be counted as a pin. The only way someone can "pin themselves" is if they are playing a passive game and just laying. I think that it would be a rare situation. Here is an example of someone getting the win from bottom from last year.
thx for clarifying im sure that will help clear it up. i would add that to the rules on the website too
Thanks NACWA!
RockTheVote - Good luck. I don't understand why a pin would be considered a satisfying finish though.The two scariest crimes are murder and being sexed against your will. When you are pinned down, the only reason your butthole is safe is because of his choice, not yours.
Josh summed it up perfectly.