Hey everyone! Thanks for the many positive replys! I hope to help clarify some things. The reason I concider the rules to be inclusive is for the same reason it was originally back in England and in the early days in America. The name Catch as Catch Can is a slang term meaning "Catch me any way you can". It was to differ it from the other regional styles that favored a specific starting hold. The Catch style was where they could all meet on equal terms. In the early days in America, many Catch wrestlers came from a different style like Greco-Roman, Collar and Elbow, and Judo. For today, I feel that the inclusion of the pin in the Catch rules for today's market allows for submission grapplers and the amateur wrestlers to meet on equal footing.
As for the guard, like explained already, both shoulders must be held on the mat for a 3 count. Working actively in the guard, ones shoulders should not be on the mat that long. At our last tournament, the winner of the Light Heavyweight Div was a Judoka, and the winner of the Absolute Div does Sambo. The West Coast King of Catch Champion is active in Swiss Swingen. Now some may disagree, some may just dislike pins, that's cool! All I ask is that before you pass judgement, give it a try. I hope I cleared things up.
A 3 count pin is a very long time to be stuck, and nothing but the tightest of holds would do that unless the bottom person is way outclassed or simply gives up. If anything it is largely used as a deterrent for stalling on the back like Lister/Barnett.
If folkstyle wrestling had a 3 count instead of 1, I honestly believe I would never have been pinned in competition ever. In freestyle there is no count; if your shoulderblades touch the mat simultaneously at all that is considered a pin.
I like the judo pinning rules better. You have to pass guard, and hold for at least twenty seconds, I think. That really displays domination of your opponent. Of course, it's much easier too hold a guy down that long using gi and belt grips.
pbody - I like the judo pinning rules better. You have to pass guard, and hold for at least twenty seconds, I think. That really displays domination of your opponent. Of course, it's much easier too hold a guy down that long using gi and belt grips.
It's not as hard as you think to roll or lift your shoulder from just being pressed on or laid on. Also, it's allot harder than you may think to hold both of someones shoulders down for 3 seconds.
mada - The pins force you to fight for top position and this is essential to wrestling. Also, whoever said that the pins aren't applicable to real life is wrong. Playing bottom on asphalt is what's not applicable to real life. These rules force the exact kind of game that Rickson was saying he wishes people in bjj would use. Just my opinion
I disagree. In real life, you aren't always the better wrestler, or the bigger person. Further, in a self-defense situation, you could be taken down by surprise (ambush, struck with object, etc.). Either way, having a strong guard game is key to survival or even attacking in such situations, both of which aren't supported by the rules of this tournament.
I don't get those being pissed about the pins, though. It's a Catch tournament, so of course the rules are for Catch style.
I think you missed my point or i wasn't very clear. Having a strong guard game is not ideal for fighting imo unless you mean strong as in sweeps or creating scrambles to get you back to a better position. I'm a bjj guy but i think laying on your back playing guard is a bad idea in a fight. Again, that's just my opinion and full disclosure I'm 6'3 and 260 so I'm sure I'm biased.
I didn't miss your point and I think it was clear enough. I just think that for smaller guys, the possibility of playing guard is a serious reality in a real fight. You have to train for reality in self-defense, and if a tournament is supposed to be some sort of measure of it (especially if open weight), you can't ignore the need for a competent guard at the very least. I agree that sweeps are probably best, but if that's not an option and breaking an arm is, that's still a good self-defense move. With pins this really doesn't seem like an option (or like real life as you wrote), since you can easily be pinned just by setting an armbar up or similar attack up.
Considering your size, I understand you are biased. We all probably are. Personally, I'm a medium sized guy. I would think against most in the street I would not end up on the bottom. Problem is, there are still a lot of guys much bigger than me (or better wrestlers), so I can't just hope for the best if the occasion I need to defend myself does occur and I am taken down.
I guess to summarize my point if you get taken down in a street fight by a bigger guy or better wrestler, he isn't going to beat you by pinning you. Further, if you can break his bones (or sweep, etc.) from the bottom you fare a much better chance of winning/survival.
Learn what the rules are and go wrestle! Every chance to get on the mat is an opportunity for growth!
In the case of wrestling a style that makes you challenge the game you already use...then that's the EXACT reason you should do it. Limiting yourself to only what you're comfortable with or what you feel you can win at is a lesson in self-defeat and stagnating growth.
Learn what the rules are and go wrestle! Every chance to get on the mat is an opportunity for growth!
In the case of wrestling a style that makes you challenge the game you already use...then that's the EXACT reason you should do it. Limiting yourself to only what you're comfortable with or what you feel you can win at is a lesson in self-defeat and stagnating growth.
sounds great. However, I don't like the pins part either. Don't need the negative comments from chadderz, either. I am a fan of catch wrestling, and think it's a very effective martial art. I'm also a fan of BJJ and think it is a very effective martial art. Same with Judo. With the allowance of pins, you can't really have the two compete on an even playing field. Pins are great for wrestling tournaments (and I guess Catch tournaments too), but not very realistic in real ife combat.
Sounds like a great event. One I would love to watch, but don't care to compete in under those rules.
TTT for what sounds like a neato event though.
I disagree if I sit on you long enough you're going to give up. In wrapping it happens it can happen on the street. I've been put in the same crank Barnett used in a wrestling match. It's a man pin.
mada - The pins force you to fight for top position and this is essential to wrestling. Also, whoever said that the pins aren't applicable to real life is wrong. Playing bottom on asphalt is what's not applicable to real life. These rules force the exact kind of game that Rickson was saying he wishes people in bjj would use. Just my opinion
I disagree. In real life, you aren't always the better wrestler, or the bigger person. Further, in a self-defense situation, you could be taken down by surprise (ambush, struck with object, etc.). Either way, having a strong guard game is key to survival or even attacking in such situations, both of which aren't supported by the rules of this tournament.
I don't get those being pissed about the pins, though. It's a Catch tournament, so of course the rules are for Catch style.
I think you missed my point or i wasn't very clear. Having a strong guard game is not ideal for fighting imo unless you mean strong as in sweeps or creating scrambles to get you back to a better position. I'm a bjj guy but i think laying on your back playing guard is a bad idea in a fight. Again, that's just my opinion and full disclosure I'm 6'3 and 260 so I'm sure I'm biased.
I didn't miss your point and I think it was clear enough. I just think that for smaller guys, the possibility of playing guard is a serious reality in a real fight. You have to train for reality in self-defense, and if a tournament is supposed to be some sort of measure of it (especially if open weight), you can't ignore the need for a competent guard at the very least. I agree that sweeps are probably best, but if that's not an option and breaking an arm is, that's still a good self-defense move. With pins this really doesn't seem like an option (or like real life as you wrote), since you can easily be pinned just by setting an armbar up or similar attack up.
Considering your size, I understand you are biased. We all probably are. Personally, I'm a medium sized guy. I would think against most in the street I would not end up on the bottom. Problem is, there are still a lot of guys much bigger than me (or better wrestlers), so I can't just hope for the best if the occasion I need to defend myself does occur and I am taken down.
I guess to summarize my point if you get taken down in a street fight by a bigger guy or better wrestler, he isn't going to beat you by pinning you. Further, if you can break his bones (or sweep, etc.) from the bottom you fare a much better chance of winning/survival.
I'm a small guy. I'd never play guard in the street. That's a terrible idea unless you're like Caio Terra lol. I'm going to take you down or run.
mada - The pins force you to fight for top position and this is essential to wrestling. Also, whoever said that the pins aren't applicable to real life is wrong. Playing bottom on asphalt is what's not applicable to real life. These rules force the exact kind of game that Rickson was saying he wishes people in bjj would use. Just my opinion
I disagree. In real life, you aren't always the better wrestler, or the bigger person. Further, in a self-defense situation, you could be taken down by surprise (ambush, struck with object, etc.). Either way, having a strong guard game is key to survival or even attacking in such situations, both of which aren't supported by the rules of this tournament.
I don't get those being pissed about the pins, though. It's a Catch tournament, so of course the rules are for Catch style.
I think you missed my point or i wasn't very clear. Having a strong guard game is not ideal for fighting imo unless you mean strong as in sweeps or creating scrambles to get you back to a better position. I'm a bjj guy but i think laying on your back playing guard is a bad idea in a fight. Again, that's just my opinion and full disclosure I'm 6'3 and 260 so I'm sure I'm biased.
I didn't miss your point and I think it was clear enough. I just think that for smaller guys, the possibility of playing guard is a serious reality in a real fight. You have to train for reality in self-defense, and if a tournament is supposed to be some sort of measure of it (especially if open weight), you can't ignore the need for a competent guard at the very least. I agree that sweeps are probably best, but if that's not an option and breaking an arm is, that's still a good self-defense move. With pins this really doesn't seem like an option (or like real life as you wrote), since you can easily be pinned just by setting an armbar up or similar attack up.
Considering your size, I understand you are biased. We all probably are. Personally, I'm a medium sized guy. I would think against most in the street I would not end up on the bottom. Problem is, there are still a lot of guys much bigger than me (or better wrestlers), so I can't just hope for the best if the occasion I need to defend myself does occur and I am taken down.
I guess to summarize my point if you get taken down in a street fight by a bigger guy or better wrestler, he isn't going to beat you by pinning you. Further, if you can break his bones (or sweep, etc.) from the bottom you fare a much better chance of winning/survival.
I'm a small guy. I'd never play guard in the street. That's a terrible idea unless you're like Caio Terra lol. I'm going to take you down or run.
I would never make that choice either. Problem is, it might not be a choice.
mada - The pins force you to fight for top position and this is essential to wrestling. Also, whoever said that the pins aren't applicable to real life is wrong. Playing bottom on asphalt is what's not applicable to real life. These rules force the exact kind of game that Rickson was saying he wishes people in bjj would use. Just my opinion
I disagree. In real life, you aren't always the better wrestler, or the bigger person. Further, in a self-defense situation, you could be taken down by surprise (ambush, struck with object, etc.). Either way, having a strong guard game is key to survival or even attacking in such situations, both of which aren't supported by the rules of this tournament.
I don't get those being pissed about the pins, though. It's a Catch tournament, so of course the rules are for Catch style.
I think you missed my point or i wasn't very clear. Having a strong guard game is not ideal for fighting imo unless you mean strong as in sweeps or creating scrambles to get you back to a better position. I'm a bjj guy but i think laying on your back playing guard is a bad idea in a fight. Again, that's just my opinion and full disclosure I'm 6'3 and 260 so I'm sure I'm biased.
I didn't miss your point and I think it was clear enough. I just think that for smaller guys, the possibility of playing guard is a serious reality in a real fight. You have to train for reality in self-defense, and if a tournament is supposed to be some sort of measure of it (especially if open weight), you can't ignore the need for a competent guard at the very least. I agree that sweeps are probably best, but if that's not an option and breaking an arm is, that's still a good self-defense move. With pins this really doesn't seem like an option (or like real life as you wrote), since you can easily be pinned just by setting an armbar up or similar attack up.
Considering your size, I understand you are biased. We all probably are. Personally, I'm a medium sized guy. I would think against most in the street I would not end up on the bottom. Problem is, there are still a lot of guys much bigger than me (or better wrestlers), so I can't just hope for the best if the occasion I need to defend myself does occur and I am taken down.
I guess to summarize my point if you get taken down in a street fight by a bigger guy or better wrestler, he isn't going to beat you by pinning you. Further, if you can break his bones (or sweep, etc.) from the bottom you fare a much better chance of winning/survival.
I'm a small guy. I'd never play guard in the street. That's a terrible idea unless you're like Caio Terra lol. I'm going to take you down or run.
I would never make that choice either. Problem is, it might not be a choice.
I wrestled and I'm sure there's untrained guys that can stop my takedown but in a one on one match I'm confident I can get on top of them in most cases.
sounds great. However, I don't like the pins part either. Don't need the negative comments from chadderz, either. I am a fan of catch wrestling, and think it's a very effective martial art. I'm also a fan of BJJ and think it is a very effective martial art. Same with Judo. With the allowance of pins, you can't really have the two compete on an even playing field. Pins are great for wrestling tournaments (and I guess Catch tournaments too), but not very realistic in real ife combat.
Sounds like a great event. One I would love to watch, but don't care to compete in under those rules.
TTT for what sounds like a neato event though.
I disagree if I sit on you long enough you're going to give up. In wrapping it happens it can happen on the street. I've been put in the same crank Barnett used in a wrestling match. It's a man pin.
I won't argue that. I also reserve the right to stand corrected. Someone else posted a more detailed explanation of a pin in this sense (3 full seconds hold) and I'm starting to come around on the idea. Was honestly thinking it was more like freestyle or folk style pins
sounds great. However, I don't like the pins part either. Don't need the negative comments from chadderz, either. I am a fan of catch wrestling, and think it's a very effective martial art. I'm also a fan of BJJ and think it is a very effective martial art. Same with Judo. With the allowance of pins, you can't really have the two compete on an even playing field. Pins are great for wrestling tournaments (and I guess Catch tournaments too), but not very realistic in real ife combat.
Sounds like a great event. One I would love to watch, but don't care to compete in under those rules.
TTT for what sounds like a neato event though.
I disagree if I sit on you long enough you're going to give up. In wrapping it happens it can happen on the street. I've been put in the same crank Barnett used in a wrestling match. It's a man pin.
I won't argue that. I also reserve the right to stand corrected. Someone else posted a more detailed explanation of a pin in this sense (3 full seconds hold) and I'm starting to come around on the idea. Was honestly thinking it was more like freestyle or folk style pins
I call those flash pins. But there are folk and free style pins I can mame your body from. In judo and Sambo it's like 20 seconds.
I don't doubt that. Getting back to tournament tho...as long as it truly allows for active guard work, my mind may be changed.
Still a little curious about the guy who posted about having someone's back, but your shoulders touch mat for 3 seconds, you lose? Lock in triangle from bottom but get stacked 3 seconds, you lose? Can you at least play the game of humping ur back in that position to keep shoulders up and stay safe?
Morgz - I don't doubt that. Getting back to tournament tho...as long as it truly allows for active guard work, my mind may be changed.
Still a little curious about the guy who posted about having someone's back, but your shoulders touch mat for 3 seconds, you lose? Lock in triangle from bottom but get stacked 3 seconds, you lose? Can you at least play the game of humping ur back in that position to keep shoulders up and stay safe?
"Win by Sumbission or pin. Pin must be both shoulder blades for a full 3 count."
That's all it says in the rules. That means you could have a rear naked choke locked in and lose, armbar locked in and lose, guillotine, etc
Morgz - I don't doubt that. Getting back to tournament tho...as long as it truly allows for active guard work, my mind may be changed.
Still a little curious about the guy who posted about having someone's back, but your shoulders touch mat for 3 seconds, you lose? Lock in triangle from bottom but get stacked 3 seconds, you lose? Can you at least play the game of humping ur back in that position to keep shoulders up and stay safe?
I hope it doesn't allow guard work. This style doesn't advocate guard useage. At least that's my understanding. If you are a guard guy either learn to wrestle or lose and know you'll be better for it.
I'd hate to see catch adjust fit the popularity of bjj
mada - The pins force you to fight for top position and this is essential to wrestling. Also, whoever said that the pins aren't applicable to real life is wrong. Playing bottom on asphalt is what's not applicable to real life. These rules force the exact kind of game that Rickson was saying he wishes people in bjj would use. Just my opinion
I disagree. In real life, you aren't always the better wrestler, or the bigger person. Further, in a self-defense situation, you could be taken down by surprise (ambush, struck with object, etc.). Either way, having a strong guard game is key to survival or even attacking in such situations, both of which aren't supported by the rules of this tournament.
I don't get those being pissed about the pins, though. It's a Catch tournament, so of course the rules are for Catch style.
I think you missed my point or i wasn't very clear. Having a strong guard game is not ideal for fighting imo unless you mean strong as in sweeps or creating scrambles to get you back to a better position. I'm a bjj guy but i think laying on your back playing guard is a bad idea in a fight. Again, that's just my opinion and full disclosure I'm 6'3 and 260 so I'm sure I'm biased.
I didn't miss your point and I think it was clear enough. I just think that for smaller guys, the possibility of playing guard is a serious reality in a real fight. You have to train for reality in self-defense, and if a tournament is supposed to be some sort of measure of it (especially if open weight), you can't ignore the need for a competent guard at the very least. I agree that sweeps are probably best, but if that's not an option and breaking an arm is, that's still a good self-defense move. With pins this really doesn't seem like an option (or like real life as you wrote), since you can easily be pinned just by setting an armbar up or similar attack up.
Considering your size, I understand you are biased. We all probably are. Personally, I'm a medium sized guy. I would think against most in the street I would not end up on the bottom. Problem is, there are still a lot of guys much bigger than me (or better wrestlers), so I can't just hope for the best if the occasion I need to defend myself does occur and I am taken down.
I guess to summarize my point if you get taken down in a street fight by a bigger guy or better wrestler, he isn't going to beat you by pinning you. Further, if you can break his bones (or sweep, etc.) from the bottom you fare a much better chance of winning/survival.
I'm a small guy. I'd never play guard in the street. That's a terrible idea unless you're like Caio Terra lol. I'm going to take you down or run.
I would never make that choice either. Problem is, it might not be a choice.
I still think you miss the point. Nobody is saying you shouldn't train from your back. The rules force you to not hang out and stall on your back. Which would also be a terrible idea in a real fight. We are talking about pinning and pinning forces these habits. And yes I know some people will be able to keep you on your back. Well some people will also avoid your submissions and beat your brains out. It's a matter of opinion and I think sweeps and scrambles are a better thing to work for than submissions in a real fight. If they are bigger and stronger and can hold you down then they can prob slam you into Bolivia when you lock up that triangle or armbar.
I don't understand why you guys are talking about "playing guard" in the street. There is a tremendous difference between fighting from your back and playing guard. No one is suggesting, or ever suggests in the threads pulling guard in a street fight.
