Silhouette - The problem with CACC is it gets confused with other things like shoot wrestling or rough n tumble matches (which were CACC matches with strangles amd punches),or every no gi grappler is a catch wrestler
CACC most certainly has pins, but most people dont train these as wrestling is less of a focus to a lot practitioners who use it as a self defense or MMA system So pins fall to the side.
Lancshire Wrestling where the term "hookers" comes from, is one of the main CACC was derived from. It was extremely brutal, Billy Robinson teaches to grapple with a closed fist because fingers could be grabbed and dislocated, people would hook holds and twist and try to cause damage although there were rules banning the breaking of bones.
American Folk wrestlers like Matt Hughes, Matt Linland, Askren, Weidman, etc who learn BJJ are already a step ahead because they have an edge in body mechanics and just sound grappling principles. Folk has clinch work, takedowns and extensive mat work which all help in MMA.
There are not enough teachers of CACC, people are having more tournaments its slowly gaining steam but its just not looked at as am efficient system for MMA, like BJJ, Hopefully Barnett can keep coaching for a while to spread catch after he retires.
Not enough yet, but we work hard. We've got a couples of tournament here in Quebec. There is at least 2-3 mma gym with cacc guy as grappling coachs. For some years now we are able to 'produce' fighters (ammy and pro) with cacc as their main grappling art.
You are arguing a point that is really irrelevant. I have no use for pins. PERIOD.
If you learned, as I did CACC as fighting art, then pins are a waste of time.
If you think that learning pins means you learned a more pure form of CACC, then more power to you. I could care less.
And once again, pins and guard work or tachi waza in Judo are not even close to comparable.
You can do CACC without pins. Easy as pie.
You cannot do BJJ without guard or Judo without throws.
Judo has pins too. For competition. U can do Judo without learning the pins. What Judo I learned, I learned to further my fighting ability. I love to throw people. Pin them? What for? Hold them until the cavalry arrives? What if it is their cavalry?
When you learn the Kodokan''s self defense art - Goshin Jitsu - no pins. Make sense yet?
No, you dont make sense at all.
There is no 'more pure cacc'. There is cacc and there is not cacc ;-)
'I'm a freestyle wrestler, but i dont use pin' Sounds goofy isnt it?? ;-)
Pins are not a waste of time. They teach ABSOLUTE CONTROL. As a teacher and coach, i realy do see them as a pedagogical tool and i think that it's the part you're missing.
It's not 'cause YOU dont see pins as relevant that they are not, i'm 100% sure that you would be a better grappler if you would explore pins. You would discover new setup for subs or counter to popular bjj position like half guard etc.
Yes you can do cacc without pins, but it's not cacc anymore, like it or not.
You can do judo without newaza, just throwing people around with no follow up to the ground, but, imho, you're missing a big chunk of judo, but i guess, you still can call yourself a judoka.
You are arguing a point that is really irrelevant. I have no use for pins. PERIOD.
If you learned, as I did CACC as fighting art, then pins are a waste of time.
If you think that learning pins means you learned a more pure form of CACC, then more power to you. I could care less.
And once again, pins and guard work or tachi waza in Judo are not even close to comparable.
You can do CACC without pins. Easy as pie.
You cannot do BJJ without guard or Judo without throws.
Judo has pins too. For competition. U can do Judo without learning the pins. What Judo I learned, I learned to further my fighting ability. I love to throw people. Pin them? What for? Hold them until the cavalry arrives? What if it is their cavalry?
When you learn the Kodokan''s self defense art - Goshin Jitsu - no pins. Make sense yet?
No, you dont make sense at all.
There is no 'more pure cacc'. There is cacc and there is not cacc ;-)
'I'm a freestyle wrestler, but i dont use pin' Sounds goofy isnt it?? ;-)
Pins are not a waste of time. They teach ABSOLUTE CONTROL. As a teacher and coach, i realy do see them as a pedagogical tool and i think that it's the part you're missing.
It's not 'cause YOU dont see pins as relevant that they are not, i'm 100% sure that you would be a better grappler if you would explore pins. You would discover new setup for subs or counter to popular bjj position like half guard etc.
Yes you can do cacc without pins, but it's not cacc anymore, like it or not.
You can do judo without newaza, just throwing people around with no follow up to the ground, but, imho, you're missing a big chunk of judo, but i guess, you still can call yourself a judoka.
We use lots of pinning technique, it is part of our style of dominant positioning but when sparring (unless we are feeling olde tymie) if you get pinned it does not count as a fall. We can't pin a judo guy and say we won, we have to submit them or use dominant control until time expires if we can't find the sub.
Since there are very few CACC rules tournaments we work on getting the sub and positioning instead of just getting to a pin.
cheesesteak - 1999 called and wants it's thread back ;)
A very good point. Next up: BJJ vs Judo.
It's really not a good point imho... The conversation is far more valid today than it was in 1999.
Wrestling and Grappling, in their various forms, are merging for the purposes of MMA. Aren't they? In 1999, people were still trying to fight with exhibition style kung fu. In 99, there were wrestlers with no grappling skills, and grapplers with no wrestling. Where are those people in the sport today?
For all intents and purposes Wasa, how much difference is there between a BJJ fighter with solid wrestling, and someone who learned almost all of the same principles through something like Catch?
Glad this got bumped though, you had some great comments and I missed them (was silenced by the vote downs, for some reason).
1999 or 1989?
Also, i think i see your point - that BJJ and wrestling have merged to give us this modern hybrid complete MMA grappling ("grappling" btw, not to be all nerdy, actually refers to wrestling, judo and any form of that involves "grappling" but i know most people think it refers to BJJ on here). I mentioned that in length earlier, how you could argue the modern catch wrestlers are the American college wrestlers turned BJJ cross trained MMAers and also listed some of the best wrestlers to add submission grappling to their wrestling base.
And though I suppose its a semantic/nuance thing, you could still make the argument that there was more a Catch vs BJJ argument back in 1999. I dont think Catch in its technical and real lineages is any more relevant today. In fact, it was more prevalent in earlier MMA with the aforementioned Lion's Den and stronger JMMA presence esp in terms of grappling (Sato, Uno, Sakurai). Barnett has been a constant. Sakuraba's run was from around 1997 to 2003. He is the best Catch guy even in MMA.
Lesnar was a recent factor but he also trained with Cumprido to beat Mir in the rematch.
"For all intents and purposes Wasa, how much difference is there between a BJJ fighter with solid wrestling, and someone who learned almost all of the same principles through something like Catch"
Generally speaking, quite a bit still. A BJJer even with strong wrestling will still be more comfortable on his back and the positioning and basic approach is still difference than a Catch guy. Catch guys, esp to be good in MMA, still have wrestling bases usually, and so there is a difference between a wrestler with Catch and even with BJJ to a BJJer with strong wrestling.
I think there is a diff bet a Barnett and a Nog and Werdum. There was def a diff bet Sak and the Gracies. But still depends on the individual. I forgot to mention Jake Shields as one of the better examples of a wrestler turned BJJer.
Its a good discussion point but havent seen anything uncovered here that wasnt discussed back in 99.
You can see a big difference between "Catch" JMMA grapplers like Sato/Imanari/Kitaoka and then Aoki. None of those guys is as technically deep and thorough as Aoki off his back and on the ground positionally. Aoki is a judo guy turned BJJ but still has elements of JMMA grappling, his leg lock game for example. You can see the judo in his throws/trips as well.
The best example of a BJJer fighting like a wrestler in MMA was Arona.
Also, many of the wrestlers with cross training/BJJ that are able to neutralize BJJers are usu not out-grappling them to win but grinding them out from top position. Not knocking that but, there is a diff between that and a BJJ Look at Hioki's last few fights against Guida and Lentz.
