cumprido1 - ...
BJJ is already pretty much irrelevant for MMA. Look at how many top guys get crushed in MMA. Galvao, Maia, MG, Roger, and Einemo are all examples of this.
That's a pretty retarded quote...
That's a pretty retarded quote...
cumprido1 - .
BJJ is already pretty much irrelevant for MMA. Look at how many top guys get crushed in MMA. Galvao, Maia, MG, Roger, and Einemo are all examples of this.
these guys spent too long on the bjj circuit if they wanted to fight mma.
if the goal is to be a fucking fighter, once you get to the point where you can place at world at purple belt (probably even dont need to b ethis good), you really need to start working on mma takedowns with the majority of your time
checkuroil - If you pull
Guard then you are accepting that the other guy is a better wrestler and taking away his ability to score those two points. I'm just giving them back
Exactly. Pulling guard means you think the other guy can take you down so you give up inferior position to prevent an even worse position ( side control, back, mount ) 
MickColins -checkuroil - If you pull<br>Guard then you are accepting that the other guy is a better wrestler and taking away his ability to score those two points. I'm just giving them back <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>Exactly. Pulling guard means you think the other guy can take you down so you give up inferior position to prevent an even worse position ( side control, back, mount ) <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
That's not really true. Against guys that are bigger than me, I prefer to play my guard, rather than pass.
The Noose - Tournament jiu jitsu is a sport, not a fight. Its a game. Of course that's been said a million times. I just don't understand why people are so irritated by a tactic used to win a game. <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
We understand why the tactic is used to win the game. It's a good strategy for the current rules.
The problem is the game is broken. Guard pulling with no penalty is contrary to BJJ's philosophy of positional control.
I don't understand how people can argue that it doesn't.
Hillary - This is a thread about competitive Jiu Jitsu.
this is a thread about incorporating WRESTLING into jiu jitsu... you get where he's coming from.
My opinion? Pulling to closed guard, or a sub/ sweep should be fine. That way you don't penalize flying submissions, sacrifice throws or forcing the fight to the ground. Sitting to your butt with no control aside from sleeve grips should be penalized.You just pretty much described the FILA grappling rule set. I wish there were some competitions in the UK that used it.
Pulling guard from a failed shot should be ok too.
checkuroil - If you pull
Guard then you are accepting that the other guy is a better wrestler and taking away his ability to score those two points. I'm just giving them back
I agree
guard pulling is so....embarrassing.
Off topic- Seriously, as long as you have a decent knowledge of BJJ, like a solid blue or purple belt, you know enough to be successful in MMA.
MMA is not a BJJ based sport, it's a wrestling and boxing based sport. There aren't too many elite BJJers who are at the elite level in MMA. Jacare and Werdum are the only ones I can think of.
Just as a counterpoint, if guard pulling and, in particular, butt-scooting place you in such an inferior position, why are guys often so cautious and hesitant to engage the butt-scooter? It's because they know that if they make even a simple mistake, they're going to get swept. I realize that butt-scooting is often an embarrassing representation of our art and that double guard pulling is the most annoying thing ever, but I don't think guard pulling necessarily warrants a penalty.
From today's MGinAction update single leg instructional: "According to Marcelo, you do not have to spend a significant portion of your training time learning takedowns in order to be successful in competition. Since you will always have the option of pulling guard, all you need in your arsenal are a few solid takedowns, such as a the Single Leg."
Just adding to the discussion. :)
JRockwell - From today's MGinAction update single leg instructional: "According to Marcelo, you do not have to spend a significant portion of your training time learning takedowns in order to be successful in competition. Since you will always have the option of pulling guard, all you need in your arsenal are a few solid takedowns, such as a the Single Leg."
Just adding to the discussion. :)<br type="_moz" />
What does that really add?
That you can be half-assed at an aspect of grappling because the competition rules are flawed?
orudis - Just as a counterpoint, if guard pulling and, in particular, butt-scooting place you in such an inferior position, why are guys often so cautious and hesitant to engage the butt-scooter? It's because they know that if they make even a simple mistake, they're going to get swept. I realize that butt-scooting is often an embarrassing representation of our art and that double guard pulling is the most annoying thing ever, but I don't think guard pulling necessarily warrants a penalty.
The butt scooter has put themselves into an unpunishable situation for competition.
Why would someone shoot a takedown and risk getting put on their ass and losing points when they can put THEMSELVES on their ass and than shoot.
No risk strategy. Of course everyone is going to use it. My question to you is why are you trying to justify a loophole in the rules. The bottom is the bottom. Whether I sweep you there, trip you there, or you put yourself there. The same way if I were to sweep you to mount, trip you to mount or you pull mount you would still lose poihts.
Calibur1980 -
No risk strategy. Of course everyone is going to use it. My question to you is why are you trying to justify a loophole in the rules. The bottom is the bottom. Whether I sweep you there, trip you there, or you put yourself there. The same way if I were to sweep you to mount, trip you to mount or you pull mount you would still lose poihts.
If it's a bjj competition, it's not a loophole. BJJ does not consider the guard an inferior position. That's why you get points for initiating a sweep from the guard but no points for an escape or reversal to the top from a position like under mount or under side control. In bjj, the bottom is not the bottom, because if you've got guard, you are in a position to attack.
And if you say that it's a "no risk" strategy to sit guard, then you are admitting that the guard is not an inferior position.
Look, I'm not saying these scoring rules are the "right" way to go about it, but they are consistent with what bjj values in terms of position.
orudis -Calibur1980 -
No risk strategy. Of course everyone is going to use it. My question to you is why are you trying to justify a loophole in the rules. The bottom is the bottom. Whether I sweep you there, trip you there, or you put yourself there. The same way if I were to sweep you to mount, trip you to mount or you pull mount you would still lose poihts.
If it's a bjj competition, it's not a loophole. BJJ does not consider the guard an inferior position. That's why you get points for initiating a sweep from the guard but no points for an escape or reversal to the top from a position like under mount or under side control. In bjj, the bottom is not the bottom, because if you've got guard, you are in a position to attack.
And if you say that it's a "no risk" strategy to sit guard, then you are admitting that the guard is not an inferior position.
Look, I'm not saying these scoring rules are the "right" way to go about it, but they are consistent with what bjj values in terms of position.
It is a loophole.
Why else would we give points for sweeping someone into their guard if it wasn't inferior? Why give points for going from neutral to neutral.
Down deep you know the only explanation that makes sense is "meh, that's just the way it is....I guess."
There has been a disconnect between jiu jitsu philosophy and jiu jitsu competitions for years, and as jiu jitsu comps have become more intense that little disconnect has grown huge.
I am not saying competitors are wrong to use this strategy. It's the competitors job to figure out the most efficient way to win.
I AM saying that the competition system needs reevaluating, and I am asking why YOU are defending a system. Particularly when the only way you can defend that system is by using the broken logic of the system you are trying to defend.
counting the hours before an IBJJF referee comes by to remind us that bjj rules are not a democracy.
orudis - Just as a counterpoint, if guard pulling and, in particular, butt-scooting place you in such an inferior position, why are guys often so cautious and hesitant to engage the butt-scooter?
because the rules of bjj protect the butt scooter from the realistic outcome of butt scooting in a self-defense context (getting your face kicked into bolivia).
imo, the scoring system should penalize the inferior position of sitting down in front of a standing opponent just like it punishes any other inferior position.
checkuroil - If you pull<br>Guard then you are accepting that the other guy is a better wrestler and taking away his ability to score those two points. I'm just giving them back <img src="/images/phone/apple.png" alt="Phone Post" border="0" style="vertical-align:middle;"/>
There is truth to this statement! I train with a few black belts in Judo and are also my current rank of purple in BJJ. Anytime we start standing I am looking to just work the basic grip and move but if I feel I am about to be taken on a ride I will jump into guard. This is my only counter to it, why if I know the guy is way more skilled then me in one area of grappling am I going to play his game? If poss I will level the playing field and work from there! Of course everyone should work takedowns which I will and do but there's nothing wrong with pulling guard when you know you are outmatched on the feet.
Grappling is a game of chess on the feet or on the floor, if you can find a way to level out the playing field with someone who is better at you in one area then there's nothing wrong with it. Having said that just don't become a constant buttfloper, work the basics of Judo and wrestling and only use it as a last resort.
Just my 2 cents...
No body says the strategy is bad.
The entire thread is about not losing points for pulling guard.