What exactly is it measuring?
I understand its something to do with the at produced within the body vs introduced test, but how is it doing this? 
Certain ethnic groups can also reach supraphysiological levels of testosterone without failing the ratio test
nsbroc -What you are missing is that when you introduce exogenous test into your body you Epi test number will drop rapidly along with your natural test amount. It isn't as simple as "I have 600 total test so I can just quadrupole this and be only 4:1. Quickly your natural test production will be under 1-200. The longer your on the lower this will get exploding that ratio.nsbroc -FatFrenchFry - What exactly is it measuring?
I understand its something to do with the at produced within the body vs introduced test, but how is it doing this?
Test and epitest are both hormones produced by the human body. In a healthy male, these two hormones are carefully regulated, with testosterone occurring in the body more so than epistest. A typical ratio of test:epitest is 1:1, with 6:1 being the legal limit in most athletic commissions (i believe).
So, when an athlete injects any exogenous hormone related to testosterone, their testosterone level increases, and the epitest does not (Unless they attend to this; most mma athletes don't know how to hide their tracks.). Athletes do not often elevate their epitest levels. Thus, when one has an unusually high test:epitest, foul play is suspected, as if the testosterone were naturally occurring, a more "natural" ratio would be produced, as they body is constantly working to keep a healthy ratio of test:epitest.
In a nutshell: when testosterone levels naturally increase, so do epitestosterone levels. However, the body does not respond to exogenous hormones, so when synthetic test is introduced to the body, epitestosterone levels do not increase.
And, as you can take from my post, its very possible to elevate levels of testosterone well above naturally occurring levels without raising any red flags. Take us, for example. Let's pretend we both have a test:epitest of 1:1 (very likely). I could effectively quadruple my test levels and still be within the "legal" 6:1 range. This is why TRT was ridiculous. It allowed athletes to optimize their levels.
In a recent study, the max T:E ratio for the 95th percentile of athletes was 3.71:1, and the max T:E ratio for the 99th percentile was 5.25:1. So, even in the most absurd of cases, a test level of 6:1 is fucking retarded. Allowing athletes to use TRT was asinine.
This should give you an idea of what kind of advantage gear can give you.
"What you are missing is that when you introduce exogenous test into your body you Epi test number will drop rapidly along with your natural test amount."
The ratio test does not measure total testosterone. And it cant tell the difference between exogenous test and natural test
with CIR testing, the ratio cannot save an athlete
GSPsShadyHandWraps - Certain ethnic groups can also reach supraphysiological levels of testosterone without failing the ratio testWhat ethnic groups?
Voted up all for the clarification
GSPsShadyHandWraps - "What you are missing is that when you introduce exogenous test into your body you Epi test number will drop rapidly along with your natural test amount."And that's where the issues come in.
The ratio test does not measure total testosterone. And it cant tell the difference between exogenous test and natural test
GSPsShadyHandWraps - "What you are missing is that when you introduce exogenous test into your body you Epi test number will drop rapidly along with your natural test amount."What I am saying is your Epi test number will drop when you start injecting test. It will not stay the same. That how we see these 16:1 test results. They don't have 16x more test than when they started
The ratio test does not measure total testosterone. And it cant tell the difference between exogenous test and natural test
Yea was a good write up on natural test vs epitest then you completely ruined it saying injecting test raises your T in the T:E ratio. It does not. Total test and the T:E ratio are totally different things. A ex NFL player got busted with a 86 to 1 ratio, you mean to tell me he was injecting like 20 vials of test a week, and got to 87 times the normal test?
FatFrenchFry -GSPsShadyHandWraps - Certain ethnic groups can also reach supraphysiological levels of testosterone without failing the ratio testWhat ethnic groups?
Voted up all for the clarification
Asian
nsbroc -Caught_clean - Yea was a good write up on natural test vs epitest then you completely ruined it saying injecting test raises your T in the T:E ratio. It does not. Total test and the T:E ratio are totally different things. A ex NFL player got busted with a 86 to 1 ratio, you mean to tell me he was injecting like 20 vials of test a week, and got to 87 times the normal test?
But what I said is correct. And you obviously don't have a grasp on steroid usage.
http://www.clinchem.org/content/48/4/629.long
No, that player probably didn't inject 20 "vials"
But he was probably pinning grams of test per week
different direction;
Test is a huge advantage. I did my first cycle in my late 40's and the difference in my body was incredible. I was already in good shape, but all of my weight training and mma activites completely changed towards the positive.
I have a question for you-does the epi /test separation have anything to do with side efffects like hair loss or getting hard on's?
nsbroc -Caught_clean - Yea was a good write up on natural test vs epitest then you completely ruined it saying injecting test raises your T in the T:E ratio. It does not. Total test and the T:E ratio are totally different things. A ex NFL player got busted with a 86 to 1 ratio, you mean to tell me he was injecting like 20 vials of test a week, and got to 87 times the normal test?
But what I said is correct. And you obviously don't have a grasp on steroid usage.
http://www.clinchem.org/content/48/4/629.long
No, that player probably didn't inject 20 "vials"
But he was probably pinning grams of test per week
No it is not correct. Are you actually saying Chael had 16 times the normal levels of test when he tested with a T:E ratio of 16:1? Because that is what I am debating your knowledge on.
And I have a very good grasp on it. The NFL player mentioned could of been pinning a gram a week, thats still not going to put him at 86 times the test of a normal man. The normal Serum blood levels of test for a average man is Level (ng/dL): 300-1200. Thats the range for "normal". A average TRT dose of 100-200 mgs of test puts you on the higher end of that. Even if you pin a gram a week, thats "only" (lol) like 8000 total blood serum, which is fucking body builder levels, and only 8-10x the test of a normal man. Following your logic on T:E that would mean he would have a levels of fucking 80000 (ng/dL) and would be like a gram a fucking day or more which is fucking insane, there was a blog about a guy who did that and its hilarious and he almost died.
Also notice I didnt just post anything wiki links here, this is just what I know, hint hint.
TL:DR T:E ratio is used for detecting synthetic test, not total levels, nothing more.
"No it is not correct. Are you actually saying Chael had 16 times the normal levels of test when he tested with a T:E ratio of 16:1? Because that is what I am debating your knowledge"
No. Chael had 16 times more testosterone than epitestosterone. Thats all this tests reveals. Its very very hard to measure total serum testosterone because of how fast it can go up and down based on when you injected. Even an endo will take multiple tests from you in the morning and noon just to get an overall picture
Of course if most normal people have a 1:1 ratio, it does suggest Chaels total test was in the upper levels or near supraphysiological levels but its far from accurate
nsbroc -Vikingknee -GSPsShadyHandWraps - "What you are missing is that when you introduce exogenous test into your body you Epi test number will drop rapidly along with your natural test amount."What I am saying is your Epi test number will drop when you start injecting test. It will not stay the same. That how we see these 16:1 test results. They don't have 16x more test than when they started
The ratio test does not measure total testosterone. And it cant tell the difference between exogenous test and natural test
No, that is not true. Epitestosterone levels are not effected by exogenous testosterone.
http://www.clinchem.org/content/48/4/629.long
But isn't endogenous testosterone production affected by exogenous testosterone? I.E. you will produce less natural testosterone which means you will also produce less epitestosterone?
Caught_clean - And I have a very good grasp on it. The NFL player mentioned could of been pinning a gram a week, thats still not going to put him at 86 times the test of a normal man. The normal Serum blood levels of test for a average man is Level (ng/dL): 300-1200. Thats the range for "normal". A average TRT dose of 100-200 mgs of test puts you on the higher end of that. Even if you pin a gram a week, thats "only" (lol) like 8000 total blood serum, which is fucking body builder levels, and only 8-10x the test of a normal man. Following your logic on T:E that would mean he would have a levels of fucking 80000 (ng/dL) and would be like a gram a fucking day or more which is fucking insane, there was a blog about a guy who did that and its hilarious and he almost died.
Also notice I didnt just post anything wiki links here, this is just what I know, hint hint.
TL:DR T:E ratio is used for detecting synthetic test, not total levels, nothing more.
"TL:DR T:E ratio is used for detecting synthetic test, not total levels, nothing more."
AFAIK it doesn't detect synthetic test, it is just an indicator. A carbon isotope ratio is needed (much more expensive, I believe) to detect it.
Tad Ghostal -Thisnsbroc -Vikingknee -GSPsShadyHandWraps - "What you are missing is that when you introduce exogenous test into your body you Epi test number will drop rapidly along with your natural test amount."What I am saying is your Epi test number will drop when you start injecting test. It will not stay the same. That how we see these 16:1 test results. They don't have 16x more test than when they started
The ratio test does not measure total testosterone. And it cant tell the difference between exogenous test and natural test
No, that is not true. Epitestosterone levels are not effected by exogenous testosterone.
http://www.clinchem.org/content/48/4/629.long
But isn't endogenous testosterone production affected by exogenous testosterone? I.E. you will produce less natural testosterone which means you will also produce less epitestosterone?
- Do savvy athletes have a way of increasing their epi levels in conjunction with raising their test levels?
2. Is the problem many have w/ TRT is that they feel some of the guys are going above & beyond the therapeutic dose? Would those against TRT feel differently if those on it were regulated to assure they only took prescribed therapeutic dose?
3. Bodybuilders have told me that the therapeutic dose for TRT is a small fraction of the test they took along w/ a handful of other drugs during a cycle...How much over the ratio does the prescribed dose for TRT put one over the allowed levels?
Thanks to anyone who can answer these questions for me.
Tad Ghostal -True. It's more like by using this T:E ratio ratio test it is a smoking gun you have been adding synthetic test.Caught_clean - And I have a very good grasp on it. The NFL player mentioned could of been pinning a gram a week, thats still not going to put him at 86 times the test of a normal man. The normal Serum blood levels of test for a average man is Level (ng/dL): 300-1200. Thats the range for "normal". A average TRT dose of 100-200 mgs of test puts you on the higher end of that. Even if you pin a gram a week, thats "only" (lol) like 8000 total blood serum, which is fucking body builder levels, and only 8-10x the test of a normal man. Following your logic on T:E that would mean he would have a levels of fucking 80000 (ng/dL) and would be like a gram a fucking day or more which is fucking insane, there was a blog about a guy who did that and its hilarious and he almost died.
Also notice I didnt just post anything wiki links here, this is just what I know, hint hint.
TL:DR T:E ratio is used for detecting synthetic test, not total levels, nothing more.
"TL:DR T:E ratio is used for detecting synthetic test, not total levels, nothing more."
AFAIK it doesn't detect synthetic test, it is just an indicator. A carbon isotope ratio is needed (much more expensive, I believe) to detect it.
Tad Ghostal -nsbroc -Vikingknee -GSPsShadyHandWraps - "What you are missing is that when you introduce exogenous test into your body you Epi test number will drop rapidly along with your natural test amount."What I am saying is your Epi test number will drop when you start injecting test. It will not stay the same. That how we see these 16:1 test results. They don't have 16x more test than when they started
The ratio test does not measure total testosterone. And it cant tell the difference between exogenous test and natural test
No, that is not true. Epitestosterone levels are not effected by exogenous testosterone.
http://www.clinchem.org/content/48/4/629.long
But isn't endogenous testosterone production affected by exogenous testosterone? I.E. you will produce less natural testosterone which means you will also produce less epitestosterone?
It should be, if you allow that exogenous testosterone will feed back and inhibit LH production, which is assumed to regulate epitestosterone production. I'm not sure that's been experimentally verified, but it should be true, if LH influences testes in general.
But then, how tightly coupled is testosterone and epitestosterone synthesis? There are cases where the ratio is not naturally 1:1.
If you read the link provided, you might have noted that it doesn't really address the relationship between epitestosterone and exogenous testosterone. Instead, the paper addresses the question whether exogenous epitestosterone can be detected by methods similar to those use to detect exogenous testosterone. It doesn't support nsbroc's claim.
What can be supported is that exogenous testosterone is not converted to epitestosterone; the two are synthesized independently, so extra testosterone is not use as a precursor for epitestosterone.